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Petition to open water in IA, KS to seaplane operations

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Re: Petition to open water in IA, KS to seaplane operations

Unread postby CFII » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:09 am

jjbaker wrote:Tim, these people are generally members who are looking for free information but try to avoid engaging in a community.
They may not even remember that they joined this forum, most forum admins call them "drive by shooters".

Fortunately, I monitor and record how, when and why we pick up members, where they learned about the forum or who invited them.
The problem with members that get invited from other (not any specific) message boards is primarily loyalty to the other message board and it often seems to be politics, which prevents them from posting here. They know it would help the community and it would help the cause, but then they'd have to admit that they read "the other" message board and that can't happen.

If I had a dollar for every member who told me they would post actively, I could skip work this month.
If I had 5 dollars for every freeloader we've picked up over the years, I could run the website for the next year, without worry.

I am used to having my intelligence insulted, countless little advocacy alerts have gone out and people have consistently shown that they believe membership in any of the 3 and 4 letter organizations is sufficient for advocacy purposes. Doh, it isn't. Not only are we decimating in numbers, we can't even get a solid bunch of people to support a petition like this. Instead, there seems to be an attitude of defeatism in the ranks (see above).

Faith is what keeps this forum open, faith is what gives people the idea that a petition like this has a purpose and makes sense.
Topics like these need to be on the forefront and they should not slide off the radar. Its painful to see how ignorant our fellow pilots are, but its important to bring this out and make it a subject for people to confront. I am glad that people are annoyed when they are asked to support advocacy issues, it shows that they realize that association lip service and magazines and membership dues ain't making things happen. I know that I can't count on most people to come out swinging, hence I work with the press and I am proud to see that my gang did take the effort to help and do something.

The topic started on supercub.org, was transported here but hasn't made it onto SPA's forum, facebook page or other outlets.

I repeat the question I asked Dr. McManus in 2009. He could not answer it. Nobody has answered it, yet.

"What good is a C5 Galaxy full of heavily armed, well trained soldiers, sitting duck on a ramp without engagement orders?"


I disagree with your philosophy on faith in this matter, which often counts on belief without any real proof, however the recent past history in such matters as these has clearly shown many significant victories for us and all of Aviation.
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Re: Petition to open water in IA, KS to seaplane operations

Unread postby jjbaker » Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:20 am

I can count my advocacy successes here on the forum on two hands.

Absolutely know for a fact that I would have shut up long ago if it wasn't for the faith in the few people we have who always seem to pick topics like this one up to share them with others. The number of people with any interest beyond their own benefit is dwindling. Its things like these where our damn exclusivity bites us in the ass. We can't rally 1000 people within a week to spend a minute of their time to sign this petition. Instead, a aquatic nuisance clown is making uninformed, speculative invasive species remarks aimed to bring people up against seaplanes. Wait until they discover that we fly leaded fuel or that seaplanes and boats could spell collision hazards.
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Re: Petition to open water in IA, KS to seaplane operations

Unread postby chrisbuck243 » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:04 pm

Just made it 450. Hope it helps.
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Re: Petition to open water in IA, KS to seaplane operations

Unread postby CFII » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:17 am

jjbaker wrote:I can count my advocacy successes here on the forum on two hands.

Absolutely know for a fact that I would have shut up long ago if it wasn't for the faith in the few people we have who always seem to pick topics like this one up to share them with others. The number of people with any interest beyond their own benefit is dwindling. Its things like these where our damn exclusivity bites us in the ass. We can't rally 1000 people within a week to spend a minute of their time to sign this petition. Instead, a aquatic nuisance clown is making uninformed, speculative invasive species remarks aimed to bring people up against seaplanes. Wait until they discover that we fly leaded fuel or that seaplanes and boats could spell collision hazards.


Needing two hands to count our victories is good! How may issues has GA even had in the last 2 decades?
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Re: Petition to open water in IA, KS to seaplane operations

Unread postby Rajay » Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:01 am

Been off-board for about a week-10 days but just caught up with both of Jason's most recent PM's (about this petition and re: changes to the forum.)

Just signed the petition and it said I was no. 544, so we're more than halfway there. (Is there a time limit by which the goal must be met?)

Another question - earlier Jason seemed to think that this wasn't getting its due attention from SPA but I saw quotes or endorsements from Walter Windus and Greg Herrick on the petiton site, and I know that WW at least is a big muckety-muck at SPA, so has there been anything more formal action by or support from SPA yet to help out with this issue yet?

FYI: I declined "updates & notifications" from ipetitions.com directly because I don't trust them to exercise any restraint - just like politcal parties, PACs, alumni associations, etc. I expect that they'll be interested more than anything else in continuing to pester me for money that I don't have to give away. And even more so because I figured that this forum already does a very good job of providing me with the focused and relevant "updates & notifications" that I want and in which I am actually interested.

Best to all.

-Dave
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Re: Petition to open water in IA, KS to seaplane operations

Unread postby jjbaker » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:11 am

Another question - earlier Jason seemed to think that this wasn't getting its due attention from SPA...


Walters comment indicates that the higher ups at SPA are at least remotely aware of the petition and it is pretty safe to assume that SPA will support the issue somehow. However, SPA has publishing opportunities such as a forum and a high traffic Facebook page with close to 6000 fans. It would cost ~ $5.00 to post about the petition and promote the petition within Facebook, asking people to sign it. It would be a matter of 3 minutes to share the situation with EAA and AOPA which would smack it on their forums and front pages. Having arguments with invasive species characters online is like wrestling with a mud pig, it does nothing. If anything, the comment about invasive species should have been removed. This is a petition collection website, ask the guy to use his own publishing outlet to fight us.

If little shit-pile underdog Jason Baker can get in touch with the media and ask for assistance, a reputable Association should be able to do the same. For whatever reason, communication and joint efforts are impossible, the associations do not work together, most activity is top secret. People think I am some asshole because I consistently bring this up and criticize it. It makes me feel like a clown walking into a nursing home. The audience is hard to impress, definitely hard to move.

Advocacy topics annoy the crap out of people. Increasingly, we see that our weakness is used against us. People who don't like seaplanes can count on one thing, time after time. The only consistent thing in this industry is its lack of organization and representation. Maybe when we loose more access and have more Lows Lakes (nobody gives a flying rats ass until its too late) the other side will wake up and get moving?

Please don't think my criticism goes against anyone specific, Dave. I greatly dislike the system and methods of how advocacy work is done. I literally hate wasted opportunity and I absolutely do not understand why those with power and influence do not use this power and influence. If anything, every single seaplane pilot in this country should be stunned and ashamed that a tiny goal of 1000 signatures would take this long to complete. 1000 lousy signatures should be done and over with in two days, in fact with more than 35000 certificated seaplane pilots, I would have set a goal of 5000. It will take those who don't want seaplanes in IA and KS less than a day to collect 5000 names against seaplanes. They will promote their agenda and plans aggressively and they will be laughing about a lousy 1000 names that took 9 weeks to collect.

Hope this makes sense. Quite a bunch of our members did in fact sign the petition.
Most of our supporters are very receptive and alert with advocacy topics and I am proud to see that.
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Re: Petition to open water in IA, KS to seaplane operations

Unread postby BGH » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:20 pm

I signed the petition when Jason first pointed it out,can't remember what number I was.

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Re: Petition to open water in IA, KS to seaplane operations

Unread postby KlausNW » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:15 am

I don't know about the rest of the Aviation News sources but This Kansas Paper is on top of things....

http://www.kansas.com/news/business/avi ... 95834.html


Petition to gauge interest in opening Kansas lakes to seaplane activity

By Molly McMillin

The Wichita Eagle

11/18/2014 11:16 AM

The state’s aviation office is exploring whether to open up Kansas lakes managed by the U.S. Corps of Army Engineers to pilots flying float-equipped airplanes.

A petition is being circulated to measure the level of interest in opening the state’s lakes to seaplanes.

It’s the first step in a long process.

That initial step aims to understand the amount of interest in opening the lakes in Kansas to seaplane activity, information about the petition site said.

Iowa is exploring the same issue.

Pilots who sign the petition aren’t obligated to pursue a seaplane rating, the petition said.

Those signing are “simply stating that they support the effort to have the Corps consider opening up their lakes in Kansas and Iowa to boaters and pilots alike,” it said.

It comes down to whether the Corps of Army Engineers determines there’s enough market demand for it, said Jesse Romo, director of the Kansas Department of Transportation's aviation division.

Several pilots are interested as is a company in Topeka that wants to offer training to assist pilots who want to earn seaplane ratings, Romo said.

“We believe there’s a market for it,” he said. “Right now, we’re trying to document that demand.”

Boats and seaplanes can both enjoy the lakes, Romo said.

The seaplanes land in open spaces on the lake, then operate as a boat on the water, he said.

“The two can work in harmony,” Romo said.


Read more here: http://www.kansas.com/news/business/avi ... rylink=cpy
Klaus Marx - Piper Pacer Pilot
Juneau, AK & Wenatchee, WA . . . . . . Click on Link Bar to view the 'non-profit' group.
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Re: Petition to open water in IA, KS to seaplane operations

Unread postby jjbaker » Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:45 am

Stonewalled to death with 621 Signatures.

Thanks to those guys who helped and tried to raise some music on this petition.

Reality Check 2014 Complete.

Finding: One cannot raise 1,000 supporters for an effort like this from more than 35,000 certified seaplane pilots.

"Between the great things we cannot do and the small things we will not do, the danger is that we shall do nothing." ~ Adolph Monod


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