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Letters needed to help seaplanes in the Adirondack Mountains

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Re: Letters needed to help seaplanes in the Adirondack Mount

Unread postby jjbaker » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:05 am

You have a secret pinkie ring? I think most members who did read what you wrote would rather stay out of critical discussions.
Tons of readers like on this topic too, lots of private messages & emails arriving here for the last week or so, but not much out in the open.

I read that you guys seem to have some severe trouble at the East Hampton Airport, too.

As of last week there has been a big time attorney hired and a petition circulated to eliminate ALL Seaplane and Helicopter operation out where I am on the East End of Long Island as well severely curtain all flight operations at East Hampton Airport. Operations from 9:00 AM till 5:00 PM only and no more than 4 take offs or landings during any one hour period. Except emergencies. Sound far fetched? There are already over 20,000 signatures on the petition.


I know that the people involved are not exactly foodstamp recipients, but seriously, 20,000 signatures? :shock:

Which of the associations (if any) is dealing with this topic if seaplanes and helicopters are affected?
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Re: Letters needed to help seaplanes in the Adirondack Mount

Unread postby RKittine » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:17 am

Jason,

It is unfortunate that people are only willing to voice their opinion behind closed doors, singing to the choir. Steve needs to hear this from more than you and I. I do believe that the SINGLE most important issue to seaplane pilots is to have places that they can operate their seaplanes, whether for commerce or for personal use.

This attorney has made at least 9 tries to get the airport closed. In addition to what I posted, they are proposing a landing and take off fee, which the airport has never had. This is not something that I would be against if it is realistic and not for people who are based at the airport. My hanger (fortunately my wealthy partner bought it) cost $149,500 and has an annual tax and monthly association fee which I pay. So in answer to your question about who is opposing, so far it is just the Airport Operator, the airport two FBOs, Airport Pilots Organization and the Hanger Owners Group. I have yet to hear anything major coming from the big time operators. There are now at least three Seaplane companies that operated in and out of East Hampton this season as well as plenty of privately owned or chartered heavy business jets.

Some interesting facts, where the FAA has let us down to some extent also. As of January 1st, 3 of the FAA periods for no actions against the airport due to past grants expire. There are 11 others, but the FAA has publicly stated that they have no intention of enforcing these 11 that expire by 2021 I believe. The town of East Hampton can do what they want.

The funny issue here is the Wealthy vs. the Ultra Rich, not the every day guy vs. the wealth. If Spielberg can not land his jet, that house will get sold and there will be one less celebrity to hold up properties values and keep the star gazers coming and spending their money. The South of the Highway Crowd, properties starting at around $5.0 million and topping out at around $100 million, complained enough to get a control tower implemented during the season (May 1st thru October 30th) and get the civilian controllers to re-route incoming aircraft over Sag Harbor and North Haven and changed the landing pattern so that the jets and helicopters were not flying over the ocean front estates, of course then the Wealthy, but not uber wealthy Sag Harbor (A condo recently sold in the Watch Case conversion in Sag Harbor for only $10 million) are now complaining and lined up to sign.

They also slipped in the problem with noise from the two private gun clubs out here all located on land pre-dating and residential building. Should be a fun year. Funny, yesterday I recorded shooting noise in the rain, not from either gun club or from local Pheasant preserve, but from 3 new property construction sites using commercial nail guns. My petition is to outlaw unregistered nail guns and require only hammers as well as no work except Monday through Friday from 10:00 AM till 5:00PM. No one has been willing to sign yet.

It is also funny that over 1,000 real estate agents, that make their living from these people seem to have or are ready to sign. I don't get it. I also live in Manhattan, I can't sleep without a lot of noise!

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Re: Letters needed to help seaplanes in the Adirondack Mount

Unread postby Tim McCormack » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:00 pm

Well, even with all the :B.S.: we still got at least 25 letters sent to an unsuspecting APA (probably more). We'll never know if it really did anything to sway any of them, but we can at least feel that we accomplished something by letting them know that we're still out here.

A hearty THANK YOU to all who took the time to respond. :beer:
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Re: Letters needed to help seaplanes in the Adirondack Mount

Unread postby cubdriver2 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:57 pm

Tim, I posted it to a few other websites and I think more the 25 letters were sent. Not all of them were CC to you.

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Re: Letters needed to help seaplanes in the Adirondack Mount

Unread postby Tim McCormack » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:13 pm

Glenn, I knew you had. That's why I said "at least 25" I'd like to know what the actual number was. I'll bet the APA was surprised.

Thanks for getting out the vote.
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Re: Letters needed to help seaplanes in the Adirondack Mount

Unread postby jjbaker » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:32 am

10 Days after my vacation announcement to Afghanistan (more peaceful there) it seems as if the normal sound of silence has been restored.

Even though the position on the SPA totem pole is embarrassingly low for New York, at least seaplane pilots there now know exactly where they stand. I do not believe that it will be possible to create an association amongst New England states (too different in their challenges, with too many major players entrenched in the choir) but it appears as if NY has a definite need for some sort of proactive representation on advocacy topics.

I wish you guys luck with getting the right mix of actively flying people on a table to tackle the upcoming challenges as a group. A giant task will be to find and motivate the younger generation (people in their 40's and 50's) of pilots to start working beyond the next 5-10 years. Most of the battleships we seem to have are close to retirement or at the end of their flying career and hard to push into action.

The Adirondacks deserve to be proactively fought for, the time to communicate with decision makers and regulators has long passed.
Yet, its never too late to start and think about tomorrows seaplane and ski pilots, if there in fact are any. A look towards sport and LSA pilots would seem prudent, RAF as an organization should be asked for guidance and possible support as it seems to be the only group of people with any bite.

Merry Image and a hopefully successful 2015!
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Re: Letters needed to help seaplanes in the Adirondack Mount

Unread postby jjbaker » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:17 am

I just found a comment in a unrelated matter that should be considered in the currently ongoing East Hampton debacle:

It has been long standing law that the FAA has exclusive control over aviation via the legal term “field preemption”. While 49 USC § 40103 does give the United States government exclusive sovereignty over airspace of the United States, it doesn’t expressly preempt state and local control of aviation. Courts have long held that the laws, rules and regulations promulgated by the Federal government are so pervasive that there is no room, at all, left for state or local governments to legislate in this area [e.g. City of Burbank v. Lockheed Air Terminal Inc., 411 U.S. 624 (1973)] While local government controls zoning and can restrict where airports are located, these governments cannot control the activities of aviation. Only the FAA controls and enforces aviation activity.


Especially in extremely emotional or legally hostile cases, this sentence above should experience legal interpretation and may be of use where applicable.
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Re: Letters needed to help seaplanes in the Adirondack Mount

Unread postby RKittine » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:40 am

A major portion of the problem regarding East Hampton is the FAA itself. Three grant restrictions expired on 12/31/14. There are 11 more outstanding, but in a letter from the FAA to the Town of East Hampton the FAA went on record that they will not enforce any grant related restriction on the East Hampton Airport and the outstanding unexpired grant restrictions, effectively telling the town that they could do what ever they want. One of the things that the pilot and hanger owners association is working on is a suit against the FAA demanding that if they do not enforce the grant restrictions on this airport that they should also do it on all other airports, which as Glenn pointed out in another thread could cause more problems then it is worth. This is another reason that I am interested in at least talking to this Past AOPA new Advocacy guy.

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Re: Letters needed to help seaplanes in the Adirondack Mount

Unread postby Tim McCormack » Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:41 am

I received the letter below from Russ Holland, the New York State liaison for the RAF. I've copied page 10 so you can see the summarized comments, pro and con. The whole report is 28 pages long. If anyone wants to see it send me you email address and I'll forward it to you.



Hi all,

You may remember that late last fall, there was a call for input to possible amendments to the New York State Land Master Plan. My request for support was responded to by many of you as well as many here in NY. Our focus was recreational aviation of course, particularly seaplane access to bodies of water within the Adirondack Park.

I have attached a copy of the outline summary released, and am pleased to note that our comments are included, primarily on page 10, and that the balance of comments is in favor of reasoned and environmentally conscious access.

Thanks for your help during the comment period,

Russ

Russ Holland

New York State Liaison

Recreational Aviation Foundation

rholland@theRAF.org

315.790.2824

http://www.theRAF.org



Here's page 10. It didn't copy in the original format so it's a little hard to read, but the comments go from dot to dot.

I. Float Planes/Sea Planes
1. Pro
• Request that no more restrictions be placed on seaplane operations in your system and that you expand usage for seaplane activities. • Designate additional areas in the Adirondacks for float plane usage. • Seaplanes provide a means of transportation to these lakes for physically impaired nature lovers, without the long journey sitting in an automobile. And of course, we don't pollute the ground air with exhaust and leave no footprint on the environment due to our visit to the lakes. Noise generated by seaplanes is often less than that from Personal Water Craft, and lasts only a short time, primarily during the departure. Our members are VERY environmentally conscious and have taken significant actions to minimize their impact on the environment. We would be happy to provide the results of noise studies performed on seaplane operations. • Do not lump seaplanes and seaplane operations with other forms of motorized water operations in the Adirondack Park region. Seaplane operations are neither intrusive nor environmentally stressful and provide access to otherwise inaccessible areas for ourdoorsmen and women including the handicapped. • DEC promised to designate additional lakes for float plane access when Lows Lake was closed to float planes, which has not occurred. • We lost Third Lake in Essex Chains as well as Lows. • Want access to Friends Lake and other lakes recently withdrawn from the Access List. • The entire park should be opened to aviation. • Float planes are a way of life in Alaska. The APSLMP treats planes like the plague. • Distinguish between motorized access and seaplanes. Sea planes have a minimal wake and are not continuously operated for propulsion once visitors have landed. • Expand floatplane access, but no floatplanes in Wilderness. • Open Round Pond, Queer Lake, Whitney in West Canada Wilderness and Lows Lake to floatplanes.
2. Con
• Concerned that float planes will bring in invasive species. • Strongly opposes changes to the APSLMP that would permit floatplanes to land and take off from lakes and ponds in Wilderness, Primitive, and Canoe Areas
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Re: Letters needed to help seaplanes in the Adirondack Mount

Unread postby CFII » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:57 pm

Looks like a comprehensive summary, when is the next waypoint in this rule making process?
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Re: Letters needed to help seaplanes in the Adirondack Mount

Unread postby Tim McCormack » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:02 pm

That's unclear at this time. Here's what was written in the report:
"Over the next couple of months, the Agency will host a review session with Park leaders and stakeholders. The session will be organized as a roundtable at the Agency and will allow for Agency staff to provide an overview of the public commentary, identify APSLMP topics that may be considered for change, and receive additional input." (italics mine)

This roundtable may provide additional opportunity for our input.
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Re: Letters needed to help seaplanes in the Adirondack Mount

Unread postby KlausNW » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:08 pm

NY agency approves plans for new Adirondack lands


As reported by a San Francisco News agency: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/NY-agency-approves-plans-for-new-Adirondack-lands-6633842.php

ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) — The Adirondack Park Agency has approved a management plan for new state land in the central Adirondacks that includes a new community-connector snowmobile trail as well as paddling access to the Essex Chain Lakes.

The plan describes a multi-use trail from Indian Lake to Minerva for snowmobiling and other uses, a new bridge over the Cedar River and additional primitive tent sites along the upper Hudson River.

Some roads will be designated for car access.

There's planned access for people with disabilities to a campsite and waterway access. Tent sites on two lakes are designated for floatplane clients.

The 18,000-acre Essex Chain Lakes tract, including eight namesake lakes, is part of 161,000 acres purchased by The Nature Conservancy from Finch, Pruyn (prine) timber company in 2007.
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