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RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

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RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby RKittine » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:36 am

Comments, from those who have read the article. Would expect a lot of people here would have views on this. Can't find a way to post a link, because it does not seem to be on line yet and I do not want to scan and put up as I do not have permission to do so.

The article basically states that you can reasonably judge your height over glassy water by looking straight down and noting the size of the reflection of your aircraft in the glassy water.

When (I meant if Glenn) I get back on the water, I think I will stay with the old tried and true methods.

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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby CFII » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:56 am

For about 20 years, I've always preferred to take very short, sideways/downward glances outside to ADD information to the standard forward visual cues for landings, both land and sea.
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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby RKittine » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:54 pm

I totally agree Dave, ADDING information makes sense. I am sure you read the article and the response it has gotten so far. I also think your "Short" glances make sense. Focusing on directly below only could lead to other grave issues.

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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby Tim McCormack » Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:00 pm

RKittine wrote:...... Focusing on directly below only could lead to other grave issues.

Bob


I dont know if that was an intended pun, Bob, but it sums it up pretty well. :shock:
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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby cubdriver2 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:14 am

I don't know what I do but when I come back to my 3,000' pond an hour after dark and come over 80' trees and get it back on the water I'm a happy camper.

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Unread postby RKittine » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:48 am

You solved the problem Glenn. Land when there is no light to make Glassy Water!

Tim, Yep a little play on words. Did you read the article?

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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby Stevesbrother » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:20 am

I got this pair of X-RAY Glasses I bought out of a comic book when I was about eight. They never worked for seeing thru girls clothes but man are they great for landings!
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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby Stevesbrother » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:24 am

Quick question - do you guys still teach throwing cushions in the water if you don't have any land reference at all. I seem to remember Jack Brown Senior telling me that back in the day. Not sure if I remember correctly or not. Anyway that could get expensive not to mention the littering fines .
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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby akavidflyer » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:45 am

cubdriver2 wrote:I don't know what I do but when I come back to my 3,000' pond an hour after dark and come over 80' trees and get it back on the water I'm a happy camper.

Glenn



I keep a hand full of glow sticks and heavy duty Ziploc bags in the plane. One pass over the lake to drop a series of glow sticks will give you a really nice reference to line up on.
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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby RKittine » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:01 pm

Throwing something into the water (especially a cushion that floats and can probably be retrieved) is still part of the standard curriculum for most seaplane training. Some Cherry Bombs might work too! :monkey:

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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby cubdriver2 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:32 pm

akavidflyer wrote:
cubdriver2 wrote:I don't know what I do but when I come back to my 3,000' pond an hour after dark and come over 80' trees and get it back on the water I'm a happy camper.

Glenn



I keep a hand full of glow sticks and heavy duty Ziploc bags in the plane. One pass over the lake to drop a series of glow sticks will give you a really nice reference to line up on.



I don't have a problem landing at night, I think I need a new watch because it happens more then a few time eack year. Don't look at any light source for at least 30 min before landing to let your eyes acclimate to the dark. I don't have any light so I need to give my eyes time to adjust. When landing on water land to the brightest horizon so that you get a reflection off of the water that will disapear at about 20' up, at least in my pond. If your on a bigger body then the reflection should stay with you all the way down. I find landing on a runway in the dark just the opposite, land with the brightest sky behind you or it will be like taking an evening picture with a bright backround.

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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby RKittine » Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:12 pm

Glenn, Check your E-mail, Read and post your comments. You too Tim. (And sure you can too Jason!) :elephant:

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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby Tim McCormack » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:27 pm

Bob, I just saw that you sent the article. I'll read it tonight, but I can't stop laughing about Glenn flying for 30 minutes with his eyes closed to acclimate his eyes to darkness. :lol: :flying:
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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby RKittine » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:41 pm

The auto-pilot is engaged during that time.
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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby jjbaker » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:49 pm

Just reading the article now.
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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby Tim McCormack » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:52 pm

Bob, I found the article to be quite interesting. If nothing else, the guy deserves an A for thinking outside the box. I'll sure give it a try when I get my floats back on.
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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby RKittine » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:02 pm

Let me know how it works out. Then I will climb in for a conventional ride.
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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby jjbaker » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:47 pm

Tim, et al...

Remember the guy who proposed a water soluble Amphibious gear mechanisms, so the gear would shear off when getting wet? :o :lol:
Must have been back in 2009 or so, and I was the IVIC of SPA's forum back then... anyone remember the drama that ensued?

I am commenting (*) after reading the article and only in context to the professionals slapping it around.

I found Andre's article on glassy water entertaining, certainly nothing to get stood up for, like a clown. Whats the purpose of an association if you can't bounce new ideas off your fellow members without having your ass handed to you in a Walmart bag together with this constant lawsuit fear-mongering?
This lawsuit talk is always coming out of the same corner and its getting old and dusty. I mean, are we really going to try this at home and then sue the crap out of one of our own, even though we're all such highly trained, responsible, certificated pilots?

Now SPA members can be sure there will have to be a legal disclaimer someplace in that magazine.

I hope someone donates the funds it will cost them to hire an attorney to formulate an absolute bullet proof/ water tight disclaimer to protect them from lawsuit happy members. Its one of the smallest circulation number aviation magazines out there and I wonder if AOPA has to write "don't try this at home" after every other sentence. Or is writing in the AOPA/ EAA magazines reserved for the industry gods and therefore beyond legal reproach?

:cry: :headbang:

I'd be surprised if that member bothered to write another article... what a stupid way to kick a fellow member of your own association in the rear.

(*) Of course, my statement does not reflect the opinion of seaplaneforum.com or any of its members and seaplaneforum.com and any of its related entities. Despite the fact that this statement is signed with my title and shown on my website, I hereby disclaim all of it as nonsense and fictional. No single or multiple persons, alive or dead as well as fictional, can be held responsible in a court of law in case the readers blood-pressure went up in response or after reading this "nonsense". Please do not drink and fly, always ask your doctor before taking erectile dysfunction medication and read and adhere to all labels, placards and instructions in and outside of the aircraft or piece of machinery you plan to use. This includes electrical equipment and things that wiggle upon pushing any button, switch or handle Except for instructions here or over there, or anywhere, for that matter nothing read here should be tried at home. Or There. Or Anywhere! If you have questions about your medication, please ask your pharmacist or healthcare professional. If you wonder why this disclaimer is here ask your friendly attorney and no neither I or seaplaneforum.com won't pay for that. Thank the constant disclaimer preachers for not being able to say what needs to be said due to the constant fear of lawsuits. Hope this helps to keep you safe and sound. Good luck!
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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby RKittine » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:25 am

What is a IVIC ? Disclaimers are never Iron Clad. I can tell you that from a LONG AGO experience when I owned and ran Mount Ivy Reloading Company, putting out reloaded pistol and custom rifle ammunition to the tune of about 10,000 rounds a week. All our boxes had a disclaimer label, but my attorney said that in the U.S., it would be hard to rely on. And that was in the 70s / 80s.

I think the concern that was posted was that new inexperienced pilots that read the article may take to heart and less about a law suit. A disclaimer, at least says something like, don't try this without being with another pilot of CFI who has done it before, would be appropriate or that the article was published to insure discussion.

When I teach from the back seat of Glenn's Champ with a new tailwheel pilot, I always glance to the side and down on landing as my height from the ground perspective with someone sitting in front of me is not as developed as I would like it to be, but it is just a glance to see if I need to help add a little power if we are slow and high.

My major problem with the procedure as outlined would be that it sounds like you have to spend a lot of time looking down watching to get the size right and a boat, tree, jet ski, Lockness monster or other things could pop in front of you while you were too focused on looking the wrong direction.

Part of the problem is that too many people take what they see in print as gospel without discussion or checking it out. Kind of like listening to talking heads without getting the full context of their statement.

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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby Tim McCormack » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:47 am

RKittine wrote:Let me know how it works out. Then I will climb in for a conventional ride.

If Glenn can fly for 30 minutes with his eyes closed, I should be able to glance down at the water for 100 milliseconds to check for a reflection. I think you can climb right aboard, Bob. :horsy:
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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby RKittine » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:57 am

OK, Guess that means that the bird goes back on the floats this season.
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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby jjbaker » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:30 pm

RKittine wrote:What is a IVIC ? Disclaimers are never Iron Clad. I can tell you that from a LONG AGO experience when I owned and ran Mount Ivy Reloading Company, putting out reloaded pistol and custom rifle ammunition to the tune of about 10,000 rounds a week. All our boxes had a disclaimer label, but my attorney said that in the U.S., it would be hard to rely on. And that was in the 70s / 80s.


I tried so hard to have an iron glad disclaimer. Must be working. No lawsuit today.

I try not to have too many disclaimers. Most of them are silly. I've had 5 or 6 threats of legal action against the forum so far, all without sharp teeth or merit. Copyright Infringement, SPA Trademark Infringement (for showing something with a SPA banner on it), Libel & Badmouthing against a former association executive (of interest to some of our members, at some point or another), threats against a former sponsor of the site and some other meaningless drivel that never woke or scared the church mouse. These days I giggle and ignore, there will be time to respond when the actual paperwork/ cease/ desist arrives. Yet, my members write largely uncensored and can post at their hearts desire. Unless its unpaid advertising or seems untrue, its part of debate. Risky, but its not like I can be sued for more than a doghouse. That said: I am legally totally responsible for the complete editorial content of this website. Just not too scared about it anymore.

I think the concern that was posted was that new inexperienced pilots that read the article may take to heart and less about a law suit. A disclaimer, at least says something like, don't try this without being with another pilot of CFI who has done it before, would be appropriate or that the article was published to insure discussion.


Couple of questions and observations, in counter, please.

How many inexperienced seaplane pilots are members of SPA? I mean, real newcomers, green and wet behind the ears, out of Embry Riddle 200 hour aviation wonders? How many people receive the magazine and how many of those read all the articles? Out of those, how many are truly inexperienced and destined to go out and hurt themselves? Everyone with half a brain and a quarter of a seaplane rating can see that the proposed method departs from standard procedure. Those with more recent training are not necessarily flying solo/ renting/ buying and those with years of experience are using tried and true methods. Am I totally wrong with that idea? I mean they could try something new and not go all the way if they sense risk?

I think even young pilots have the brains not to jump into a turning propeller, just because someone wrote that this was fun, in some magazine.

When members write in the magazine or the forum (blog), they are offering ideas and concepts up for peer review and of course, debate. Why would the same people call it "nonsense" and speak down to them like they are stupid kindergarteners? Where else could someone share such ideas? Why do there have to be fear mongering threats mentioning liability insurance for SPA? Its Mark Twombly's responsibility to protect the publishing entity, no one else has that job.

Controversial debate doesn't have to leave people feeling like idiots. The guy ran his way of doing glassy water landings by his fellow members in a well written, almost humorous way. His article beats the tone of some of the other articles which I used to read when I still had the magazine subscription. SPA and its members should be glad that more than the same 5 people write for the magazine. Its good to have a pulse and signs of life and ideas and debate.

Part of the problem is that too many people take what they see in print as gospel without discussion or checking it out. Kind of like listening to talking heads without getting the full context of their statement.

Bob


I understand your point, absolutely.

Question:

How many accidents have we had in which the NTSB found the pilots adherence to printed or displayed information as causal to the accident. None. Not once, ever, has someone smacked a plane and then said: "Buuut I kneeew I could do thoot, cuz Blue Hue Dong on xxy.com said it was saaafe!".

:yessir: :flying: (never realized that this guy is jumping in the prop and his hat goes too!) :cowwave:
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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby RKittine » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:25 pm

Nobody I know sues the NTSB. They make up excuses as to what happened so the plane can be blamed and not pilot error, like reading the checklist caused them to lose track of their vertical velocity.

I will guarantee you that if I teach a BRAND NEW Student from the start something unsafe or stupid, they will probably do it, until someone corrects them, they get hurt or figure it out.

One good thing for sure is that this topic has generated much needed activity on one site and good discussion on this one. Might get a couple of pages going here on a Seaplane related topic. More interesting then Seaweed powered aircraft.
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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby jjbaker » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:13 pm

Stevesbrother wrote:Quick question - do you guys still teach throwing cushions in the water if you don't have any land reference at all. I seem to remember Jack Brown Senior telling me that back in the day. Not sure if I remember correctly or not. Anyway that could get expensive not to mention the littering fines .


I think that is still common practice, like throwing live vests into the water.. The practice ought to be prohibited as too many many pilots seem to throw live preservers out of the plane with the passenger still in them. Big doo doo. There ought to be a disclaimer to take any passenger (at least those who are still alive) out of the flotation device before throwing the item in the water. I do like the X-Ray vision glasses but haven't used them in a seaplane. Maybe someone has experience with that?! :shock:
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Re: RETHINKING THE GLASSY WATER LANDING - The Article

Unread postby RKittine » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:52 pm

Remember Robert Duval leading the Air Cav with Speakers Blasting. Since so many of us have iPhone and iPads now, how about an article on disrupting the surface by over flying while blasting audio waves downward from your iPhone, iPad or MP3 player and then checking depth with your X-Ray glass, all before throwing out a passenger to swim around and make sure there is no Glassy Water? :horsy: Of course that means no solo flying. :shtf:
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