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Icons on the Hudson

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Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby skimmerone » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:43 pm

I just watched the Icons over the Hudson River video on the SeaplaneMagazine. I don't know who is responsible for it, but it rings true to all of the Icon ads I have seen so far.

As a seaplane instructor I must say that I would never encourage joy-riding in that particular area. It is probably the busiest harbor in the world, with every imaginable water craft; ferries to aircraft carriers all creating wakes. It is tidal. It is salt. It is rougher than a corncob with any appreciable wind blowing. I have made the passage up and down the river several times under 1000' altitude. You cannot take your eyes off the surrounding airspace. There are helicopters criss-crossing all over. On one windy northbound flight up the east side of the river I had a 45 degree crab angle to keep me from being blown into the buildings on Manhattan.

And these jokers are out there touting what fun it is to see New York by seaplane! Ask any East River pilot what he thinks when he is dodging the bridges, masts, flotsam and jetsam. Any small amphibian has no business being on the Hudson River. Even 100 miles north of the city the Hudson can be quite wild under certain conditions.

Icon has given the seaplane fraternity a big black eye. All of the safety promotions and public relations has gone down the drain due to this type of hype. Icon is in serious trouble already with this attitude. It is high time they "straightened out and flew right" ...if you will pardon the pun.

John
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Re: Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby RKittine » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:59 pm

+1 John, I wonder if there was a TFR that day so they could shoot? I have seen them do that for less important activities.

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Re: Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby jjbaker » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:24 am

Please, someone help me understand what exactly constitutes approved advertising in the seaplane industry?
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Re: Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby KlausNW » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:54 am

John, I agree with what you are pointing out.

The non-aviation people think older pilots are just a bunch of dinosaurs with our heads stuck in the mud. Many of these "autonomous garage-to-garage dreamers" don't understand how aviation has evolved and will continue to evolve. There's a lot of details that need figured out before the big step to an autonomous UBER air-taxi drone. The Icon CEO Kirk Hawkins is one of those dreamers that feel he has the answer to make aviation great and popular. I've watched videos where Kirk explains that he's the aviation outsider. Kirk and his team are going to show all of us old cronies how to do it right. He hasn't done his homework and studied the fall of aviation in the mid 70's. "The rise of the lawyer"
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Re: Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby RKittine » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:16 am

JJ, I don't think that John, or I for that matter, disapprove of the magazine taking on any particular advertising.

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Re: Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby jjbaker » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:20 am

What is unlawful or unsafe in that video?

This isn't paid advertising nor is featuring the video paid for. I change the vids frequently and completely randomly.

We certainly aint measuring with the same tape here, because had that footage been recorded over land, or with any different airplane, everyone would have loved it...

My question above was referring to what ICON was supposed to do differently in its advertising to be approved or blessed...

And you bet I discriminate on who advertises on my site. I fail to see what ICON has done to damage aviation and our completely non existent public relations status.
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Re: Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby RKittine » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:26 am

Maya Cupa, Maya Maxa Cupa
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Re: Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby jjbaker » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:29 pm

Cupa Coffee here too. Anytime!

:beer:

Just to be sure, we're talking about this video?



Here's a guy who skimmed the surface of water with his airplane for some 50+ minutes.



Here's a team of two pilots flying extremely low.



Here's how Lamborgini takes on the collapsing planet earth.



Here is a recently published advertising from a company that builds luxury SUV's



Last but not least, here is how Mercedes gets people out of their stoic Facebook liking stage... and buying cars



Jaguar responded...



Mercedes didn't let it sit...



All these are examples of advertising and trying to attract people into their respective field. Its just not standard.

Companies spend millions of dollars creating videos, sponsoring events or making the most exciting splash one can possibly make.

Some revert to trying to buy editors to write nice things about their airplanes. That, we call influencer marketing.

Just a week ago, I got an email from a marketing agency that offered me a "free gift" from a company that wishes to introduce its new endeavor.

All I can take from this, is that if a company decided to feature a well done video on Seaplanemagazine.com, they should be paying for it.

Obviously people do see these videos.

I had written a longer email to John, so I hope he'll come back and straighten me out.

I am not trying to be controversial, really just trying to figure out what ICON has done to this industry that is causing any harm...and how.
SPA has never once publicly stated that ICON is damaging the industry. I've heard the rumor that such is said, but so far, all is crickets.

Who would be the authority on what damages or helps the seaplane industry?
Not those who claim to reach the most people and those putting adventure back into aviation?

:beer:
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Re: Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby KlausNW » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:43 pm

It's a simple rule for advertising. What can you afford to defend in the courtroom?

Red Bull Energy drink does not actually give you wings... except for the lawyer who won $13 million.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11155731/13m-lawsuit-proves-Red-Bull-doesnt-give-you-wings.html

If Icon aircraft can defend their commercial in the court of lawsuits, more power to them. If the commercial is blamed for causing a series of low level accidents eventually some snake ambulance chaser will win a major reward.

:friendsforever:
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Re: Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby RKittine » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:36 pm

I wonder how many seeing the Water Skimming video go out and try it? One little ripple at the wrong moment and over it will go and at those speeds with terrible results.
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Re: Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby jjbaker » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:42 pm

Sorry for being a pain in the butt... Klaus

:shock:

Are you complaining about our broken tort law system or the ambulance chasers who file frivolous lawsuits and then end up winning because being dumb is actually being rewarded these days? There is only one ambulance chaser reading here and he would rather drink a gallon of bleach than respond to anything...

Technically the idiocy of our legal system is just about as infinite as whatever level of dumbness is socially acceptable. No worries, we have by far not reached rock bottom. I swear, we can do much much dumber and much more ridiculously.

I am simply asking how exactly ICON has given the seaplane fraternity a big black eye and where and how our public relations are affected. There has got to be something tangible? Are we afraid that a flatly entertained, busy, Facebook addicted general populace is going to give a crap about anything that zips over their screen or smartphone? Whats left of Roy Halladay? He would have caused the same upheaval in the media, had he converted himself to mush in a Ferrari or Porsche or if he had swallowed the wrong funny pill. This seems more like an internal public relations issue, within our seaplane and general aviation community.

They started a company, built an airplane and used a different way of attracting their potential clients without asking permission from anyone. The concerns about low altitude operations triggered the company to develop its LOWALT training system. What exactly have they done to damage our industry, or whats left of it? Is it the price that drives people mad? Is it that part of the plane is produced in Mexico, or the rumors about Chinese investors? I don't seem to see it, so please help me take my obviously pink glasses off... :ugeek:

My guess: ICON will find its place just like Cirrus did, just like the Beech Bonanza did, just like any other manufacturer who had a rough start.

They all eventually found their place and get on the path to satisfying their particular customers wants and desires.

:flying:
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Re: Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby RKittine » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:35 pm

I do remember fondly Bob Hoover's interesting flying advertising Rockwell Commanders, so I guess I am just getting old and forgetting. When I was young and stupid (just not young anymore) i remember flying under the Mid-Hudson Bridge regularly. So, I am off to Saint Patrick's Cathedral in order to light a few candles and beg forgiveness for doubting the purity of ICON and their commercials. Will be right back.

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Re: Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby KlausNW » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:54 pm

"LIABILITY" - The big black eye. Why keep punching the black eye.

The idea of making aviation exciting is good unfortunately how you go about doing it is another thing. Icon's idea of an amphib in every garage is great but, telling the unwitting public it's 'simple' is the problem. Three-Dimensional transportation now and in to the foreseeable future is not "EASY".

The advertisement video pushed every vertical and horizontal distance regulation. Everything they did was totally within the rules. The regulations are written as minimalist as the industry felt was needed. Now, what is the better practice...

The regulations say 500' above and 2000' horizontal from people. I believe that is a safe distance but, is that necessarily the way a pilot should fly most flights? Just the minimums? The public wants a flying UBER to land and takeoff from their doorstep, can we do that yet?

Icon Aircraft is insinuating operations in congested areas is currently safe and common practice. The Air Traffic Controllers are not ready for a hundred low flying aircraft zigzagging through New York, even at minimums.

That's why I started this thread "The Flying Car Evolution":
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4774

We are going to have more careless incidents that will force more rules and punish the pilots that are trying to do it right.
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Re: Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby jjbaker » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:02 am

Someone check on Bob please!

Fire reported from St. Patricks Cathedral?!
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Re: Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby RKittine » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:31 am

+1 Klaus,

I fly the VFR corridor often. I was actually totally surprised that after 9/11 it was reopened. I talk to LaGuardia and Newark during the flight while also abiding by the corridor rules and procedures including announcing on the designated frequency. I usually fly down from entry to the Hudson River at the Alpine Tower in Alpine, New Jersey, make one lip around the Great Lady and then get a clearance to overfly Newark Airport over the mid-field runway 4 at 1,300 feet and over to Caldwell and then North. Without very special clearances, you can not fly over the city at any reasonably low altitude. It is possible to get the FAA to establish TFRs in the area for special events, like Warbird Day, Fleet Week, etc. Now there are a lot more since our president has a major presence in Manhattan often, which is making TFRs more common place around southern New York and Northern New Jersey.

What I also did not like was the special allowance of MGW for the ICON to qualify as LSA. There are plenty of 125 - 150 HP C-150s, 125 HP all metal Luscombs and C-140s, with MGW over the 600 Kilo limit even with the added allowance for float planes, that do not qualify as LSA, but would make, safe affordable small airplanes on floats, or the same ones with original power on wheels for LSA (or Single Passenger) pilots to fly and maybe would have prompted the New EDO to make some new 1320s or 1400s as Kenmore said if they could get a commitment of 10 sets per run, they would start making them again.

I got the fire out J.J., fortunately I had drank a lot of wine during the day.

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Re: Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby jjbaker » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:36 pm

We are going to have more careless incidents that will force more rules and punish the pilots that are trying to do it right.


At current pricing and production load these planes ain't selling to average Walmart customers. After having several conversations with folks there (including Kirk Hawkins) I think ICON isn't in a bad place. Maybe within its own seaplane industry, but so was Cirrus for a loooong time...and so am I, if you ask the SPA...

High profile buyers with their own set of paparazzi are always dangerous. The more expensive your airframe the lower the chances are to have very pleasant PR after a pilot induced screwup. So far its all been pilot induced. To correlate that to the companies advertising is a bit of a stretch, but everyone is entitled to think otherwise...

No manufacturer can control how their product ends up being used. One would hope that people who see any airplane maneuver extremely low to the ground would obtain proper training and maybe apply common sense and logic.

One would also hope that people operating on water obtain valid information and adhere to the regs. So far, ICON is the only company that offers any low altitude training and certification course.

Its a pure, fly low and VFR machine, just like your average ragwing Cub or Searey, Flymax or LISA. Its not like its cruising at 190 KIAS and it does seem to have very tame flight characteristics. Just until it kills you, because it can't save your bum. Planet earth really doesn't yet offer popup cushions or a freeze/ reset button.

People are going to use it, make mistakes and pay with lots of money or their life for being idiots, or all to complacent. Which aircraft manufacturer is free of that?
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Re: Icons on the Hudson

Unread postby RKittine » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:12 pm

All fine and dandy until you read some of the fine print these days, the likes of agreeing to limited life spans etc. I know it is a way to keep the manufacturer's liability lower, but it will come back and bite people later in my opinion.
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