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Looking to purchase amphib

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Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby Johnsteffey » Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:50 pm

In so. Florida, looking for experienced information on my search for purchasing my first amphib. Contact i formation, pilots willing to share appreciated!
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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby Buter » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:31 am

Hi John

I'm in the process of relocating to South Florida and converting from dirt based planes to water based planes. I'm afraid that I don't have any info for you at the moment but I'm happy to share info as I gather it.

There's a few good replies to a similar question of mine in the general discussion section.

Cheers

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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby KlausNW » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:41 pm

Welcome aboard John,

:welcome:

Buter has started a thread asking a very similar question here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3400

If you think that you can get away with only a two seater aircraft, that will be a different discussion. If a two seater amphib. is acceptable choice of aircraft let us know.
Klaus Marx - Piper Pacer Pilot
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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby Tim McCormack » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:59 pm

Welcome, John. I'm in Venice Florida for the winter. With you and Buter we may need to form a Southern Florida contingent of the forum to keep those New York guys in check.

I can't help with the amphib part, except to say that there are now amphib floats available for even Super Cubs and Cessna 172's. At one time I thought it might be nice to have a set until I found that they sell for $45,000 +. :Mr.Money:

BTW, my 180HP 172 will get 4 people off the water quite readily, but it does require a fairly long run. It's a GREAT 2 place seaplane.
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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby BGH » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:01 pm

I am just getting ready to go onto amphibs for the first time in over 30 years of ownership.It is looking like I won't take the insurance hit that I thought I would,it will knock my payload back about 300 lbs from straight floats though.The setup will be a 1970 a185e on edo 2790 amphibs.
Here's a picture of them before i began a very long & expensive refurbishment.

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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby Buter » Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:44 am

Hey Daryl, it would be great if you could do a step-by-step of the install with pics.

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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby Tim McCormack » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:45 pm

... and tell us about the Seabee sitting there.
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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby TriPacer » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:44 pm

Welcome, John! I'll just add this to the discussion - unless you're an experienced seaplane pilot, you'll have a lot of trouble finding insurance for the amphibs. No one would even quote me on them (I have a grand total of 10 hours SES), and those that did were prohibitively expensive ($8-10k/yr).

Food for thought. Amphibs lend a lot of utility, but they do have a lot of drawbacks as well.
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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby Buter » Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:21 pm

Hi Tripacer

By way of comparison, what was the quote for the same ac not on amphibs?

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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby RKittine » Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:47 pm

My experience with insurance quotes on a plane I looked at was about $2,000.00 per year for straight floats and $8,500.00 for the same plane on amphibs. The total Hull Insurance was higher for the added value of the amphib, floats with adds some cost to the insurance. When I looked at a Lake a while back the insurance was higher and required 25 hours minimum of make and model time by a Lake Authorized instructor, plus recurrency instruction. I think Skimmer1 can comment on that for you. When I first got my Chief, I was paying $2,400.00 a year for straight floats with a Hull Value of $60,000 as it had just been totally rebuilt, but the killer was that my deductible in motion was $4,500.00 and $500.00 static. Once I got 100 hours of make and model time my insurance dropped to $1,800.00 with a $1,500 deductible in motion and once I pssed 200 hours of make and model time the insurance dropped to $1,400.00 and the in motion deductible to $1,000.00, but we had reduced the hull coverage to $45,000.00 of Stated Value.

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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby Tim McCormack » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:41 pm

But Bob, wasn't that in the 1940's? :lol:
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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby BGH » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:07 pm

Guys (& gals reading):

The seebee blew an engine & was waiting for the parts to rebuild the franklin when the guy that owned it gave up & sold it to my mechanic.The wings were removed to make it easier to store in the hanger,it's currently waiting for it's new owner to install the corvette engine he bought for it.
As for pics of my bird as it gets plumbed for the amphibs & the other work - I'll take them as the work progreesses & open a thread about it.

My last quotes were as follows: hull value wheels $110,000,insurance cost $2145. Hull value floats(cap 3000D) $130,000,insurance $3200.Hull value amphibs $150,000,estimated quote $3800.All with $500 deductible in motion & pilot has about 1800 total,660 on floats,880 on taildraggers & even 1/2 hour on amphibs.I have a canadian commercial license,land & sea & group 3 ifr(single engine ) & take recurrency every 2 years,or as requested by my insurance company.

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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby TriPacer » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:49 am

Buter wrote:Hi Tripacer

By way of comparison, what was the quote for the same ac not on amphibs?

Buter


Well, I don't think I ever asked that question directly ("What would this plane cost if it were on straight floats?") since we weren't in the position to choose. The closest comparison I can make is that we looked at a 182 (straight floats) and a 180 (amphibs). They were of similar vintage and the hull values weren't too terribly far apart. The 182 was quoted at about $4k and the 180 at about $10k from Avemco. The tailwheel has something to do with this, too, I know, but I think 2x the cost for amphibs is pretty standard. Avemco was also the only company that would make us an offer. No one else would even touch a set of low-time SES pilots. Though, to be honest, for the rates charged I know several pilots who just self-insure and set some money aside each year in case they bend their amphibs.
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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby RKittine » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:23 pm

It is hard to self insure for liability and many of the aircraft insurance compnies will not even write the liability portion on an amphib to a low time pilot. Easier to self insure a set of $40,000 amphib floats rather than a million dollar liability lawsuit.

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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby TriPacer » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:13 pm

Very true - I didn't ask but I'd guess those guys carry some degree of liability insurance elsewhere. I'd just be speculating, though.
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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby RKittine » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:58 pm

After having been burnt in the past, I carry a $5 million umbrella liability policy that does cover aviation. We live in a Sue Happy Country.
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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby Tim McCormack » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:36 pm

RKittine wrote:After having been burnt in the past, I carry a $5 million umbrella liability policy that does cover aviation. We live in a Sue Happy Country.



WOW!! That must be expensive!!
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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby Buter » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:11 pm

I know of one airline that self-insures it's 50+ hull fleet of Jumbos. Cheaper to fix than insure, apparently.

One had a bit of a boo boo back in December and the decision was to unbolt everything and turn the hull into South African beer cans.
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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby hotspur666 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:42 am

Speaking of beer cans...
When the burden of complying with the Feds mandatory maintenance get too great and available near new airliners
are too cheap, the old girls are turned into beer cans thus:
(Keep in mind they may still look good, but they have been flying around the clock 24/7,
15 hours a day for the last thirty years, racking well over 50,000 hours for most of them...)
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Take N727NY on top there..they tried to sell it for ages, then gave up:
http://www.aso.com/listings/spec/ViewAd.aspx?id=144474
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Look brand new, but has over 100,000 hours!...Hush kit was just too damn expensive, one would guess...Man, this thing can cruise at Mach .89
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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby Buter » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:33 pm

I can see at least 2 that I've flown!

It is often cheaper to buy new aircraft than it is to do the Heavy checks. We're adding to that lot on a monthly basis now. The reason they all look in such good shape is they clear all the defects before they get put in the desert. I'm not really sure why, but the planes are usually in the best shape of their lives when they get put out to pasture.

B
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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby RKittine » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:44 pm

Tim,

The umbrella insurance costs me $1,071.00 per year. Covers up to $5 Million for civil actions whether you win of lose and the same for criminal as long as you are equited. Cost me $58,000.00 once to defend myself in a frevolus law suit that was thrown out of court, but the person suing had no money to go after in a counter suit. All I could do is write it off on my taxes. It also covers me for shooting (if I lend a shotgun to someone and the barrel blows etc.) and sky diving and scuba diving. And of course driving, flying etc.

Bob
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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby hotspur666 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:43 pm

In Canada, the loser has to pay the winning side's costs and prove he can before they are incurred, I believe.
No need to countersue...(Except in small claims cases, of course)
On the other hand, we are called the mafia's heaven for a reason...

I looked up a detailed bill for a Heavy check on a DC-8...cost to replace the co-pilot's
microphone holder, a WW II relic, was $800.00
I asked a director of a plane manufacturer how their could bill like a toilet seat for thousands,
for instance...The answer was that to determine cost for each item on a maintenance bill or part for any plane
was prohibitively expensive by itself so they took the project total cost to them, plus their profit margin, about thirty percent,
like all decent business, then divided by the number of parts or billing items, and thus got a number for the part or maintenance item,
admittedly imaginary, just like the weight and balance numbers of a passenger airplane versus a freighter.

Note that most Chinese businesses operate on a near one per cent profit margin,
so the ridiculously low prices and a bubble that has got to burst sooner or later...
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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby RKittine » Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:16 pm

Yep, Canada is under the same law system as the U.K. To bring a suit, you have to put up a bond so if you lose you for sure have already paid for the other side. We need some serious Tort law reform in this country. People should be able to sue for real cause and collect reasonable amounts to cover what happened to them. Law suits are a joke in this country. Tomorrow I could file a law suit against J.J. for starting a Forum and he would need to answer it even though it would be a frivolous suit.

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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby jjbaker » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:03 pm

Any attorney with less than 6 pounds of pure crocodile shit in their skull will tell their client to skip the lawsuit against me.
I'll settle for all tangible assets on the same day. Within 1 year, I will be the friend from the past who visits plaintiff in the mental ward, every single day.



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Re: Looking to purchase amphib

Unread postby hotspur666 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:47 pm

We have a no-fault insurance here, so I can insure a car and a van for $400...
However(yes there's always an however), I had to store my $600 dirt bike because
a pencil pusher decided motorcycles had too many accidents and charge $500 to
insure/licence the itty bitty bike.

We just elected a brain surgeon here as prime minister...maybe he can do a job
on these idiots' heads!
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