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Insurance Costs

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Insurance Costs

Unread postby BGH » Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:50 pm

I'm a relatively low time pilot with only 1900 or so total time with commercial,group 3 instrument ( single engine) ,land & sea.Almost all of my time is in my 185 either on wheels(950 approx in the 185) & floats(660 approx in the 185) & received my renewal yesterday for $110,000 full coverage on wheels ( $3140 ) & $150,000 on Amphibs (4130) with a need for 20 hours dual on the Amphibs before being turned loose on my own; costs are acceptable but I have told my broker that the number of dual hours is unacceptable,am I being unreasonable?All numbers quoted are in Canadian dollars.

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Re: Insurance Costs

Unread postby RKittine » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:40 am

Doesn't sound unreasonable to me. I needed 10 hours of Dual in Make and Model when I originally bought my Chief on straight floats and when I took on a partner in my 182 (Wheels only) they required 35 hours of dual for him, but he was just a Private Pilot with 400 hours. I believe that for a Lake you are still required to have 25 hours of dual from a Lake Certified instructor to get insurance and John can comment as to what recurrency training that requires. I get it when talking about Amphibs.

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Re: Insurance Costs

Unread postby jjbaker » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:25 pm

Howdy, 20 hours dual are a usual requirement prior to converting to amphibs. As silly as it sounds, use the time to get the gear position issue nailed cold. Especially when coming from straight floats or non complex planes, I'd take the requirement with a smile. Forgetting this gear would be no fun and this happens to people with enough experience, often enough.
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Re: Insurance Costs

Unread postby BGH » Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:49 am

Reason I question the numbers is that in 2003 the same insurance underwriter requested 3 hours of dual training on my 185 to transition back to floats,their specified instructor knew me & my current skillset so he offered to call them & have a chat with them so that I didn't waste my money;I told him it wouldn't hurt so I would just do it to make them happy.After that they required my ifr ticket renewed to receive coverage on floats - long story short it cost me somewhere near $3000 that year for requested training for zero reduction on a $3000 premium.

They have requested a gear advisory system be installed & it will be installed even before the Amphibs are,the original agreement 5 years ago was training until the instructor was comfortable with my performance-which could have been a lot more than 20 hours,they haven't even provided a training checklist to ensure I am properly trained to their standards,I could bore holes in the sky & that would be good enough for them as long as it's 20 hours worth.

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Re: Insurance Costs

Unread postby jjbaker » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:13 am

Generally the underwriter just wants to see the requirement filled, somehow.

Maybe a chat is in order? The insurer can't really determine a training plan, be glad if they can tell the front end of your 185 from a forklift... All they know is that the risk is much higher and due dilligence on their part is to require some sort of training.
The 20 hours could be set completely deliberately, however its within the realm of what other insurers require.

The only other option is to see if other insurers/ underwriters will sign without that requirement or offer less hours.
Then you'd show them who is the customer and simply depart for another insurance company...
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Re: Insurance Costs

Unread postby BGH » Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:23 am

I have already voiced my displeasure to my broker & he is trying to nail down exactly what they want.
Because of the amphibs Global was the only one to even offer a quote this year.

On a similar note my friend retired from the airline & asked to be put back on the insurance in 2001,only sticker was the request to renew his cat 3 - try doing a cat 3 approach in a 185 on floats,for those not familiar with cat 3 it's basically autoland to a runway with no circling for a river.

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Re: Insurance Costs

Unread postby RKittine » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:09 pm

Daryl,

Where did they ever come up with any reference to CAT III? Someone is not to bright. Requires:
Prior CAT III Certification
CAT Three Aircraft with CAT III runway or Phase III Simulator
and Auto Throttles are only required for full CAT III Autoland.

One of the only three positive things that came from my Medical Retirement was the ongoing availability of Phase Checks in a Phase III Simulator.

I think you need to change insurance agents / companies.

Have you talked to Falcon?

Bob
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Re: Insurance Costs

Unread postby BGH » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:58 pm

I have straightened out both underwriters & brokers in the past because of unbelievable requests,in the case of the cat 3 renewal request - well someone in the brokers office saw that my friends cat 3 had expired because he had retired as a 747-475 captain.The underwriter was not aware that the broker had made that request & went to bat for me against the broker.
In this case my displeasure of hours required has been forwarded to the underwriter,we shall see what happens.

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Re: Insurance Costs

Unread postby RKittine » Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:04 pm

Hope it turns out well for you Daryl. Although I have had policies where "Designated" i.e. "Named Pilots", were required to have Instrument Rating, I don't remember any that required confirmation of instrument currency, no less competency. Same for the time requirements. Had to show the time on the pilot form, but no one certified it. I would guess that if a claim was made, they would look to see what the log book entries were to substantiate that. At best it is a poor system anyway and over the decades I hate to guess how much Parker Pen Time has been written.

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Re: Insurance Costs

Unread postby BGH » Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:05 pm

I believe that it will all work out Bob,I can honestly say that I have no Parker pen time.

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Re: Insurance Costs

Unread postby RKittine » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:13 am

Daryl, Wasn't inferring that you had any false time in your log. After having been an instructor since 1967, I have looked at a lot of log books with dubious entries. I think a combination of Time Requirements for Currency, For Ratings and for Insurance, may have added to this. I went through one of the Rating Mills in the mid 60s where you went from zero time (I already had quite a bit of time but much was prior to my age being old enough to qualify to solo) to a Commercial Pilots License with an Airline Transport Rating, which in those days was a rating prior to the establishment of the Airline Transport Pilot.

Things were turned around in those days. Part 141 Schools required 35 hours for a private, 160 for a commercial, 250 for an instrument and then 1,200 for the ATR. Amazing how many people seemed to be able to take check rides earlier in the same environment of school every day. Most graduated in 2 years with a total of 1,500 hours and the additions of the Lear and MITUBUSCHI types, Seaplane, CFI, CFII, CFMEI and Basic and Advanced Ground. No requirement in those days for Complex, High Performance, High Altitude etc.

My eyes really got opened when I owned three Beech Duchess's and a 310 and ran a Multi-Engine Training Program in Chicago. I was one of the few places that would rent out a twin. The Duchess, being a simple aircraft (A Beech Sierra with a second engine) had reasonable requirements:
Private Pilots License
Instrument Rating (no specification for proficiency or currency)
Multi-Engine Rating
25 Hours of Dual in Make and Model (PIC Time in Made and Model did not count. Had to be with an instructor. - I only mentioned that since when I bought the first one, I could have gotten a check out in an hour or two and then risked flying without insurance until I logged 25 hours, and would have not satisfied the insurance.)

I had pilots come to me to rent, with newly minted Multi-Engine Ratings showing 5-6 hours of dual and a 1 hour check ride and then a bunch of solo PIC time that I knew was bogus. A quick 20 minute flight would prove it.

I lost a lot of business when I told people looking for the rating that I required 13.5 hours minimum to complete my Part 141 Course and that it was not guaranteed although we did have an examiner on staff. I knew from rental applicants that one of my competitors gave 3 hours of dual, penciled in a total of 6 in the log book, prepped the student on the three questions that the on staff examiner would ask and if answered correctly would be the end of the oral, and exactly what the check ride would be. The examiner was in his 80s and frail. I knew the guy.

One pilot that applied with me for a teaching position had taken his multi at the same guaranteed school and then with 2 more hours of real dual added to his log book and 10 hours of PIC added in, took his MEI. It was from the same examiner and was in the winter. Why do I mention that? Well the guy told me that his instructor told him to climb in the plane first and fly from the left seat because it was easier for the examiner to not have to climb over the passenger seat to the pilots seat at his age (it was in a Seminole with only one door) and to tell the examiner that the heater was In-Op, which was already placarded as such. His resulting MEI ride took .6 and he was a newly minted CFMEI.

After 30 hours with me in the Duchess, he started instructing for me and did really well. Unfortunately is next job was flying a Beech D-18 solo delivering checks for old fashion clearing, and one Chicago winter night, bough the farm.

Some 500 students later, there was one failure and zero accidents.

I think the insurance companies go over board in order to make sure that there is at least some real proficiency. Otherwise they would need to start to hire examiners to do a phase check with a prospective client before issuing insurance. They don't make much money if the first year an owner pays them $3,000 and then totals the airplane and has a claim for $100,000.

Sure things will work out. At this point in my flying career or lack there off, I wish that insurance was my only concern. There are some that fly without it.

Cheers, Bob
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Re: Insurance Costs

Unread postby BGH » Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:57 am

I knew you weren't implying that I might have Parker time - I'm just proud that I don't.
As for insurance requirements well I own my 185 because my newly minted seaplane endorsement gave me the ability to rent nothing solo so dad & I went hunting for an aircraft on floats that I still own today(33 years on Oct 7 or 13,can't remember at the moment).
I too have run into people who's skillset shows much less than their hours claimed & that is why the insurance companies place these numbers on people to protect their investment for them while not having to pay out huge loss claims.

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Re: Insurance Costs

Unread postby RKittine » Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:35 am

I too bought into a plane (the Chief) with two partners based on the fact that renting a seaplane was virtually impossible in New York. If they straighten out this change to the medical certificate requirements under the Pilots Bill of Rights, I will be in another partnership with one of the two that I owned the Chief with. For the amount of time that I have to fly on floats and with the limits of where I can use a floatplane in New York / New Jersey, partnership is the best route for me.

I am excessive compulsive and my log book shows it. I keep detailed monthly records, annual records and records totaled by type, make model etc. Although I can log as PIC all my flights unless I am out of Biennial and doing it with an instructor, any dual I take I log as just dual and not also PIC so my PIC, SIC, Simulator and Dual Time exactly match up to my total time. A lot easier today with electronic logging, but even my old Master Logs from the 60s on are the same.

Having been flying LSA since I was diagnosed with cancer, I have not invested an amphib LSA seaplane. Nothing left for passenger weight and fuel.

Would love something like you have.

Bob
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Re: Insurance Costs

Unread postby BGH » Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:42 am

Bob ,I was the ripe old age of 23 when my dad found this aircraft for me - he was the mechanic & I was his pilot.I never in my wildest dreams figured I could fly a 185,let alone be the sole owner.I've made some fairly expensive maintenance mistakes which have almost cost me the aircraft & has left a sour taste in Diane's ( my wife) mouth; but even she does enjoy travelling by private aircraft.Now that dad has passed most of my flying is by myself;or with just Diane & I on board so I thought that I would try Amphibs so that I'm not flipping back & forth every year.
I have followed the medical reform through AOPA & I hope that it will allow you to again log the pic time as the sole mmac( master manipulator of aircraft controls).
My logbook reads like the storybook of my aviation travels that it is.

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Re: Insurance Costs

Unread postby gear » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:39 pm

RKittine wrote:
Have you talked to Falcon?

Bob

to my knowledge Bob, falcon won't quote insurance in Canada.

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