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a little hell in paradise

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a little hell in paradise

Unread postby splash » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:46 pm

I got a call from Island Seaplane services. Pat Magiee promises me a job in Hawaii if I obtain a CFI. He ask, "how long will it take you to get the 2 written exams complete?" I tell him a month. That is too long he says, "I need someone now, can you have them done in a week"? I order Shepard Air and get both of them done in ten days. I call and supposedly the pilot he has is still there. I do not hear back from Pat until two months later..."Hey, did you get your CFI complete? Ok if you can get signed off there in a seaplane we can do your checkride here." I do some ball busting and get signed off for a CFI in a SES. Keep in mind this is all done in a matter of about 2-3 months. I am now off to an adventure in Hawaii. I have my doubts about something but I am an adventurist and jump on it regardless of what my gut is telling me.

The building blocks of learning begins here for me. I never imagined Hawaii to be as mountainous as it is. Pat was very welcoming and we began by a training flight with a mix of tours with me in the front next to him. I never touched the controls on the tours around the island. I didn't ask and I was still feeling out the 86 year old man. There was also another very part time CFI SES there helping me prepare for the oral part of my checkride and he was doing the tours with Pat when I just got there. For some reason Pat did not let me fly with the CFI as he (CFI) was wanting. The CFI leaves eventually but while he (CFI) was doing the tours with Pat I noticed some exhausting look on his face after returning from the flight. I ask him about it off to the side and learn Pat is yelling at him while the tour is in the back seat. Now there is a poo side of Pat I never seen OR this CFI is terrible on water. The CFI gives me warnings of how Pat is.

The CFI leaves for home for his other flying gig. Wow, what a difference now. I can't seem to do anything correct to please this old man. He invites me to a pissing contest of aviation achievements which I turn down by saying with a smile, "I don't get into pissing contests which I know I can't win". Couple days go by and it is now all about Pat patting himself on his own back. The comments he made to me were so laughable because I have never flew with such a pain in the arse before. There was no other way my mind could handle the crap which began to pour out his mouth like..."You're not a pilot...There is no good seaplane pilots where you come from...if you add power now I will break your f---ing arm...You can't even talk on the radio...these traffic controllers anent even qualified to be controllers". Those are the highlighted comments that stand alone while I was flying with this old ego pain in the ass. Anyways, I kept riding on. A student shows up one day. Pat sits in the right seat with student and I'm riding along in the back observing. Pat and I go on another (my last) training flight and there it is again, "the students can fly better than you!!!". Returning back to the base I'm coming in just fine on the final approach to waterway 8 (will never forget this) and just before reaching ground effect he starts yelling..."pull the f-ing nose up, what are you doing, pull the f-ing nose up!!" He grabs the controls pulls the nose up about 15 feet above the water screaming as if we are about to slam into the water. We are way behind the power curve now and ten above the water with this huge ass flare. I'm adding power and he isa uncontrollable 5 year old. We smack the heels of the floats and bounce once. I'm looking at him as if he is absolutely nuts. I can't believe he is blaming me for this horrific touchdown.

Another student shows up and I'm in the back seat again. I start putting the pieces of the puzzle together. I ask his wife after the flight if Pat has a medical. She tries to go around the question, "he is legal to fly in the front seat with you". What have I been doing I ask myself. I need to step outside for a minute and just breath. I walk back in and tell her that I am willing to fly the tours with Pat but the risk of me riding in the back with him in the front with a student is too great. She tries to make me feel guilty by telling me the students is where we make the most money. It doesn't work and actually pisses me off in a humble way. She calls me in the same day and informs me they have another guy in the military that is coming here to get his CFI and instruct for us, we are letting you go. I gladly walk away smiling saying how much I hope he works out for them. I'm sure he can take the mental abuse but I wonder if he is willing to take that risk if he even figures it all out.

Such a disservice in so many ways. Stand them up just to knock them down (student and employee) and a waste of such a good thing in the wrong hands of Island Seaplane Services.
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby akavidflyer » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:30 pm

damn, sounds like a really crappy situation. Glad you got out of there with just a bounced landing and not a swim!
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby KlausNW » Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:33 pm

Most of these old aviators just don't know when to buy a condo on a beach and feed seagulls.
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby jjbaker » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:47 am

Pretty sobering. Thank god there's never a shortage of peeps willing to put up with operators like this.
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby KeithSmith » Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:24 am

splash wrote:A student shows up one day. Pat sits in the right seat with student and I'm riding along in the back observing.
.
splash wrote:Another student shows up and I'm in the back seat again.

Question: When you were in the back of the airplane those two times with the student in front with Pat, was the student rated in single engine seaplanes?
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby splash » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:44 pm

KeithSmith wrote:
splash wrote:A student shows up one day. Pat sits in the right seat with student and I'm riding along in the back observing.
.
splash wrote:Another student shows up and I'm in the back seat again.

Question: When you were in the back of the airplane those two times with the student in front with Pat, was the student rated in single engine seaplanes?


Students were ABSOLUTELY NOT rated in single engine sea. He is under part 91 so when the FAA shows up he is able to run them off his property as soon as they show up. I thought about reporting this and still may do so. Pilots are constantly in and out of the door and the students get shoved off to complete their training elsewhere because there is no legal "CFI" there. It is the biggest scam in aviation I have ever personally experienced. He knocked one of these students headset in the water while getting out of the 206 and told his wife he would split the cost of the Bose headset he knocked in the water. I was ashamed to be there. His wife tells me after I refuse to ride in the back seat "that's where the majority of our revenue comes from" referring to the students. Yeah, they pay upfront thinking it is a legit aopperation. Then there is no one to sign them off ever. It's a horrific business model with much potential looking to sell for a big steal in order for Pat to move back to Alaska. At the greatest it may be worth $800,000 depending how much corrosion is under every paint bubble on the 2 airframes. To be honest I was a bit nervous about lack of maintenance on the airframe behind every paint bubble (in one spot as large as a dollar bill just under one window).
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby splash » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:07 am

jjbaker wrote:Pretty sobering. Thank god there's never a shortage of peeps willing to put up with operators like this.



Your name may get blackened in the area but it is worth it. I believe mine may have to be honest. We are getting too old to put up with this crap, Jason.
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby jjbaker » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:13 pm

You talk to the guy with the black name to this day. Its good and well, splash. The only thing that matters is that you sleep well at night, knowing that you did what you could to make a nasty and dirty game better.

Of course you will leave more feathers if you spit in the cornflakes of a living legend. There are people out therewho are so far beyond reproach that not even the FAA will go after them. Its alwas some component of politics in the game.

The final decision is if you are willing to carry a brandmark for the rest of your career, just to show a dinosaur that its day is coming. Time solves many problems, often there may not be a need to get your hands dirty.

Choose your path and execute!
Find me on Skype via jasonjamesbaker.com, I think we haven't chatted ever since I dont have a U.S. telephone number anymore....

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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby KeithSmith » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:23 pm

splash wrote:I thought about reporting this and still may do so.


Personally, I hope you do.
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby TriPacer » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:45 pm

Likewise!
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby KlausNW » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:10 pm

Who do you report it to?

The same FAA that is shutting General Aviation down across the country? Let's just give them more fuel for their efforts.

Seniors behind the wheel of an automobile kill way more people then seniors flying aircraft. Why don't we just start turning in all of the old people for driving recklessly? Read the NTSB reports on car accidents, very large percentage are over 70 years of age.

https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/older_adult_drivers/

My answer...? you're not going to like it.... Once a person is diagnosed with dementia or any other mental disorder (regardless age) remove their access to vehicles that can travel over 40 miles per hour.

Many communities have changed the laws to allow golf carts, side-by-side and similar vehicles on roads posted 35 MPH or less. Seniors can still go to the local grocery, shopping and restaurants. If you live where there is no low speed access to these places "MOVE".
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby RKittine » Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:00 pm

I agree, and maybe a driving test every so often rather than just an eye exam, after a certain age. Here in New York you get a drivers license good for 8 years and that is just by passing an eye test or providing the results of an eye test. That alone I believe would have helped get the pilots bill of rights on a faster track.

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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby KeithSmith » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:54 pm

KlausNW wrote:Who do you report it to?

The same FAA that is shutting General Aviation down across the country? Let's just give them more fuel for their efforts.

If the FAA is shutting General Aviation down across the country, they must have done it when I wasn't watching because I don't see that happening. I do see a sport pilot community that wasn't there only a few years ago. I also see a greatly relaxed medical standard starting for most general aviation pilots. However, I do see a decline in general aviation due to excessive litigation, product liability, insurance, and other expenses that are largely outside the scope and control of the FAA.

KlausNW wrote:Seniors behind the wheel of an automobile kill way more people then seniors flying aircraft.

I don't see how that enters the picture, but let's turn the basic question around a bit. Let's say you find out after the fact that someone who was not legal to fly had taken you for a flight. You also find out during the flight that the person lacks the skills to safely operate the airplane. Upon reflection you realize that had there been an accident, that person would likely have claimed you were the PIC even though there had been no such discussion in advance. As you walk away from this situation you know that the individual is going to do the same thing to some other unsuspecting pilot and that the individual will continue to put the safety of others in peril through his operation. Would you want someone to step in and correct that situation or would you want such a thing to continue?
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby KlausNW » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:11 am

If the FAA is shutting General Aviation down across the country, they must have done it when I wasn't watching because I don't see that happening. I do see a sport pilot community that wasn't there only a few years ago. I also see a greatly relaxed medical standard starting for most general aviation pilots. However, I do see a decline in general aviation due to excessive litigation, product liability, insurance, and other expenses that are largely outside the scope and control of the FAA.


I'm looking at aviation from my experiences and conversations over the years. There's a good chance that I hold a pessimistic and prejudice view of the FAA and transportation regulation industry over all. Maybe my comments are in error.

After 20 plus years of hard work from the EAA and many industry people the FAA finally did create the Sport Pilot regulations. The experts that the FAA enlisted did not recommend the gross weight restriction and have written articles asking why 1320 lbs. (600 kilograms)?

The new relaxing of the medical had nothing to do with the FAA from my point of view. Congress had to do the FAA's job for them. Congress had to pass the bill that wrote the rules and even had to push the FAA to implement the rules within one year.

The FAA has been lobbied for over fifty years to take at least 10 percent legal and financial responsibility for the certified aircrew and aircraft. If the FAA is named in law suites involving FAA certified people and equipment it would give a totally different outcome in these over-the-top financial payouts. Even if the FAA is only found responsible for just 10 percent, the government will spend whatever it takes to win the case and set precedents. It is very very expensive to get aircraft and equipment certified, it should mean something.

If a current certified pilot has an accident in a current certified aircraft the FAA punishes both instead of figuring out where they went wrong. Maybe the system has no fix but, if the FAA is only going to be an enforcement agency we'll never know.
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby KlausNW » Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:12 am

I don't see how that enters the picture, but let's turn the basic question around a bit. Let's say you find out after the fact that someone who was not legal to fly had taken you for a flight. You also find out during the flight that the person lacks the skills to safely operate the airplane. Upon reflection you realize that had there been an accident, that person would likely have claimed you were the PIC even though there had been no such discussion in advance. As you walk away from this situation you know that the individual is going to do the same thing to some other unsuspecting pilot and that the individual will continue to put the safety of others in peril through his operation. Would you want someone to step in and correct that situation or would you want such a thing to continue?


Yes, I agree, prevent a foreseen accident.
if you approach the pilot-in-error with the regulations in hand and they refuse a reasonable discussion... Give the FAA evidence of the violation to the regulation and allow them to do the rest. If you don't give them a very good case they have your word against his. If I only learned one thing in my years, it's do the government agency's job for them or it will go absolutely nowhere.

This is the website that has the most updated regulations:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14tab_02.tpl

I believe the problems that plague the aviation industry are systemic across the whole transportation industry. I believe if the government would just address the basic problem, transportation will improve on all levels.

Government transportation agencies must share responsibility when things don't go right. This goes to bicycles, automobiles, boats, aircraft, trains and walking in a crosswalk at an intersection. When you have an incident or accident do you learn from it or just cross your fingers it doesn't happen again? I'm guessing that you have a mental list of do's and don'ts. After getting water in my fuel tank and not preventing entry and not trying hard enough to remove it taught me a lesson, now I take water very seriously and do about a half-a-dozen things to prevent a future incident.

To prevent the same occurrence happening twice "I" follow through personally with preventive actions. ...Why?
Responsibility; suffering the consequences.

The agencies that require and demand of us must also take responsibility and suffer the consequences when in error.
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby jjbaker » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:32 am

I somehow doubt that anyone at the FAA would bother to check into these allegations, nor do I believe I will live to see partial responsibility for lack of enforcement or supervision placed on our governmental glacier.

It takes an act of god to get anything accomplished.

I keep the identity of my members private, even if I receive inquiries (from two people so far) asking who Splash is.

Cheers,
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby KeithSmith » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:25 pm

jjbaker wrote:I somehow doubt that anyone at the FAA would bother to check into these allegations, nor do I believe I will live to see partial responsibility for lack of enforcement or supervision placed on our governmental glacier.

It takes an act of god to get anything accomplished.

You might be right or you might be wrong, but one thing is certain, if they don't know about it, they aren't going to take action. If they don't take action, a dangerous and illegal activity will continue. So, the only remaining question is how would you feel if someone got hurt financially, professionally, or physically and you could have done something to prevent it but didn't.

jjbaker wrote:I keep the identity of my members private, even if I receive inquiries (from two people so far) asking who Splash is.

Cheers,

Because of the way you worded that you may have left the misimpression in someone's mind that I asked you who Splash is. To be clear on that point, I didn't, and if you think otherwise, please say so.
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby jjbaker » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:56 am

The topic has had a lot of interest from outside. Not sure where and how its been shared. And no, Keith, I confirm it wasn't you or anyone on this site. :-)
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby KlausNW » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:42 pm

jjbaker wrote:The topic has had a lot of interest from outside. Not sure where and how its been shared. And no, Keith, I confirm it wasn't you or anyone on this site. :-)

This topic of "older pilots flying" is a daily discussion at most every airport across the country. Many people are looking for the answer. I don't like any of the answers myself because I might even get old someday and I don't want to be a hypocrite.
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby jjbaker » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:20 pm

Its still a good topic and I appreciate everyones input on it. If we look deep and carefully, each one of us knows a guy or two who is flying around with or without the corresponding medical or mental fitness or acuity to do so.

Where do we draw the line? On one hand we argue tooth to nail that there cannot be a maximum age or stringent medical requirements for us little people. Everyone with a DL is supposed to fly.

Somehow we manage (as a collective) to force a relaxation of standards upon the world, but when we think someone should not be allowed to fly, our perception of the regulation changes and we tend to look for someone to do something.

Its the same with regulatory burdens or advocacy issues. We hear, say and see nothing until it affects us personally. Then we look around and find little to no support and no functioning system kicking in.

In a perfect world, we would recognize when its time to stop and when to voluntarily hang the headset up. Fact is, the moment you no longer dare to go get a medical exam for fear of being told that the ship has sailed, you have no business in any airplane or car, where other unsuspecting people have every right to expect your unlimited fitness for what you are doing.

If its a topic that enjoys true compassion, we should hear from each and every member we have and win new members, willing to share their take.

Let it rip, I am here all week, every week.

;-)
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Re: a little hell in paradise

Unread postby KeithSmith » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:19 am

For better or worse, America has evolved into a country where nobody is allowed to fail. Participation trophies to ease the pain of not always being the winner. Students passed from grade to grade even if it means "dumbing-down" the whole education system to see that everyone succeeds.

Quality control among drivers is nonexistent. The whole system has evolved into a way to collect money with safety as the facade of justification. Aviation is far from perfect, but it's not nearly as bad as the road.

I tend to feel that while age (both too young and too old) are factors, they pale in comparison to judgment and ethics. The egregious violations I see that fall under the "careless" part of FAR 91.13(a) are caused by poor judgment. Violations under the "reckless" part of that regulation comes from either poor judgment (emotional immaturity) or a failure of ethics. Those are tough qualities to quantify, so people want to fall back on arbitrary qualities that can easily be quantified such as age.

I've known a great many people over a lifetime who limited their driving to daytime only. Are they better or worse drivers than the next person? Yes, they don't have the skills and abilities to operate in all conditions, but they have the judgment to know what their limits are and operate within them. I've also known a lot of pilots who demonstrate similar sound self-limiting precautions. Are they better or worse pilots? Those critical inner qualities do not lend themselves to simple measurement.
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