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Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

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Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby TriPacer » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:52 am

I so wish this was me... As far as I can tell, this pilot did nothing against FAA or MN rules. No TFRs were active and although there seems to be a city ordinance against landing on the lake when there is an event going on, preventing use of the plane until the Ryder Cup is over seems a bit extreme.

Also, the police chief can kindly shut the hell up. What a tool...

http://www.twincities.com/2016/10/02/pilot-landing-on-lake-hazeltine-most-imbecilic-thing-police-chief-has-ever-seen/?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1475454555
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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby KlausNW » Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:08 am

I read the story and couldn't find "imbecilic" issue. Maybe the pilot mistake was not having a chauffeur. :(
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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby RKittine » Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:30 am

If the city ordinance doesn't allow this during an Event, I think the Ryder Cup would qualify as an Event and he was therefore in the wrong, which doesn't help our cause. They are also probably pissed that he did not pay his spectator entrance fee.

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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby TriPacer » Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:18 pm

I hear you about the city ordinance, but then that has to be communicated via NOTAM or a TFR ordered or something. You can't expect people to comply with rules they don't know about, especially when MN rules explicitly allow seaplane operations on the lake in question. There are TFRs over every MN Twins game in Minneapolis.
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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby RKittine » Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:46 pm

Unless the body of water is a designated Seaplane Base, there is no requirement for a special TFR etc. We have the same issue in Sag Harbor. It is a state rule that allows Seaplane operations in Lake Hazeltine and not federal FAA rulings. The ordinance was passed on August 1st and published in the paper and on the cities web site. The local ordinance restricts any seaplane operation within 1,500 feet of the land in Sag Harbor, North Haven and Shelter Island. That includes taxiing. Call it a boat or not, the local ordinance spells out specifically Seaplanes. It has nothing to do with the FAA, but if you violate it, you will be fined and if more than once, your plane can be impounded. Ignorance of the law is not a defense. When I was still actively flying seaplanes, I always contacted local municipalities before setting down on water where there was no specified seaplane base.

We went through this up at Island Bob's. The section of the Hudson River that we operated on had a channel, where the channel is part of the Lawrence Canal. New York State does not allow seaplane operations in any of the State Canals. The State Police, which has jurisdiction over aircraft in many states were all over us. Technically we could operated outside the channel and be in the Hudson River rather than the Lawrence Canal, but that was risky both because the river is narrow in this area, but also has trees on both sides in most areas as well as is shallow outside the canal, but there is 12,000 feet of the river, designated by the FAA as a seaplane base in the area, and there it was controlled by the FAA and still is OK to operate there.

In New Jersey, there are only two seaplane bases left, one with brackish water and one salt water. You will find those two listed in the State DOT Aircraft manual, but you will NOT find what are the areas that you can not operate. Don't get caught though landing or taking off on the 100s of other reasonable size bodies of fresh water in New Jersey.

Another interesting thing, there is a Seaplane Base owned by Dave MacMillian on the New Jersey side of Greenwood Lake. The lake is about 7 miles long and a mile wide and about 1/2 is in New Jersey and 1/2 is in New York. New Jersey has an ordinance against seaplane take offs and landings on the lake in New Jersey even though there is an FAA designated Seaplane Base in New Jersey. There is no direct restriction though against taxiing in New Jersey, so a number of us paid to register our seaplanes as boats in New Jersey and with the stickers, could taxi to the New York side (there are at least three seaplanes docked on the New Jersey side) and take off and land and then taxi home. A number of guys have been fined for doing otherwise. Dave recently recertified the base and the FAA told him, he had to abide by local ordinances. Even more bazar is that from this http://www.airnav.com/airport/6NJ7 I think most people would figure that there is a 5,000 foot water runway right there.

Steve is VP of Sales for Cessna and has a Super Caravan and a 206 Amphib as his company cars (Plus a 5 series BMW. http://www.northjersey.com/news/n-j-a-w ... -1.1364833

If you look at the sectional you will see how close the West Milford, New Jersey seaplane base is to the New York State line on Greenwood Lake, but no where in the Non-FAA descriptions of the seaplane base does it tell you that you better use 5,000 feet North of the state line into New York.

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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby KeithSmith » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:17 pm

I read the story here:

http://www.startribune.com/floatplane-pilot-lands-in-hot-water-at-ryder-cup/395585871/

I certainly agree. A whole lot of facts are missing.

It's also interesting that the chief of police would call the pilot so many names when if he had pulled out a hand grenade and blown away a bunch of spectators they would have referred to him as "the suspect".

I believe what we have here is a demonstration of what happens when someone upsets the apple cart for a city that rakes in money for doing nothing in particular.

Incidentally, the comments following the article are also interesting.
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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby cubdriver2 » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:19 pm

Hudson is not a problem, just a hot headed trooper. Last 5 years we were landing and taking off between the dredge barges. Boys were playing in it yesterday when I was there

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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby jjbaker » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:27 am

Always good to see that seaplane pilots can be pursued with worldly means. Who can put on their resume that they watched their judge and executioners arrive by paddle boat?
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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby TriPacer » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:40 am

I'm no lawyer, but it seems strange to me that a city can pass ordinances on waterways/lakebeds that don't belong to them. It seems in direct opposition to the state of MN rules to restrict seaplane landings on a lake that is specifically called out as allowing seaplane landings.

I did not realize that the ordinance had been posted on the city's website, but in all honesty, if I went to the State of MN rules and saw that "hey it's totally cool to use Lake Hazeltine", I'd probably have done it, too. I get that we're supposed to be responsible for "all available information", but that seems to me to be getting a little on the ridiculous side. I understand that there's no requirement for a TFR, but it seems to me that would have saved a lot of drama. They went to the trouble of having someone watching radar, so you'd think they could have at least thought of a TFR.
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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby jjbaker » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:37 pm

A city website is not a preflight planning tool. NOTAMS are!
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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby RKittine » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:15 pm

I would error on the conservative side, when there is no Federally Funded (FAA) facility (Seaplane Base).

http://avstop.com/stories/part3seaplane.htm

Glenn, you know the area around Saratoga. Can you operate a Seaplane on Fish Creek?

Most seaplane pilots I know take the position that once on the water, you are not a plane, but you are a boat. OK, do you check the local boating ordinances prior to landing on water where these is no Designated FAA Seaplane Base? Weren't two people in a canoe also detained if not arrested?

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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby jjbaker » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:35 am

Glenn, you know the area around Saratoga. Can you operate a Seaplane on Fish Creek?


Where on this planet is Glenn, these days?

I know the answer to this question without asking Glenn...

If the floats fit in it, Glenn can operate a seaplane in and out of it... ;-)
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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby RKittine » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:04 am

I guess I should have said "May You" operate a seaplane in Fish Creek and the legal answer is: "Sometimes". I bet Glenn could get his Coupe onto the water in my pool.

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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby TriPacer » Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:31 pm

RKittine wrote:I would error on the conservative side, when there is no Federally Funded (FAA) facility (Seaplane Base).

http://avstop.com/stories/part3seaplane.htm

Glenn, you know the area around Saratoga. Can you operate a Seaplane on Fish Creek?

Most seaplane pilots I know take the position that once on the water, you are not a plane, but you are a boat. OK, do you check the local boating ordinances prior to landing on water where these is no Designated FAA Seaplane Base? Weren't two people in a canoe also detained if not arrested?

Bob


True, and I agree with that, but then the local ordinances are in direct opposition to MN Seaplane Regulations. You're right about the canoe. Altogether, though, I just think the blame/heat is going towards the pilot, where the city was the one that hastily wrote an ordinance (a temporary one, as well), and, in my opinion, didn't take steps to properly communicate it to pilots. As Jason mentioned, I don't think most pilots would use city webpages as preflight information. A NOTAM or TFR would have avoided all this and if they went to the trouble of having someone watch radar, you'd think they would have thought about a NOTAM at least.

Don't get me wrong - erring on the conservative side is always good practice, but for folks to act like the guy was an "imbecile" like the police chief mentioned is pretty harsh given that I don't think most pilots would have gone into the level of detail of checking regs above and beyond the state rules, especially when those rules specifically state that the lake is OK to operate on.
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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby TriPacer » Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:35 pm

And thank you, Bob, for the article - I just went over to it and it looks pretty pertinent!
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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby RKittine » Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:15 am

I once spent $58,000 to win a law suit brought against mean that was thrown out of court by a summary judgment in my favor. The judge said I could counter sue for the costs and damages, but the person suing had no money and all I would be doing is paying added legal fees. That was back in the days when you could carry forward losses 15 years and I did get a good portion back in tax relief, but after that I have carried a $2 million Umbrella Insurance Policy at all times. Sometimes you still lose even if you are in the right.

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P.S. - Since Glenn did not respond. Fish Creek is at the North End of Saratoga lake. It is legal to operate a seaplane there. Before I started using that water I checked with the State Police, the Local Police, the Local Government, the Lake Authority and the Home Owners Association and all confirmed that you could operate a seaplane there. There is also plenty of boating on this section leading up to the lake. What I did not know was that, it was not legal to operate a boat there during the Skulling Races that they held from time to time, even though they are kept to the eastern side of the navigable water. Those races are sporadic and you have to check with the local club, check the local news paper or check the local marina as to when they are held. There was no web site for the municipality back in 2005.
Any yep, I landed there one day well away from the race, was stopped and ticketed, tried to plead not-guilty based on not knowing the law and was found guilty and had to both pay the fine and a court fee. Fortunately it was listed as a boating violation and does not show up on any of my FAA records. And of course, $285.00 in fines was better than getting arrested.
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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby TriPacer » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:57 pm

RKittine wrote:Sometimes you still lose even if you are in the right.


And that is the bitch of it! :)
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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby gear » Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:23 pm

RKittine wrote:They are also probably pissed that he did not pay his spectator entrance fee.

Bob

According to one of the stories published, both the pilot and the passenger had tickets to the event.

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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby KlausNW » Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:54 pm

Charges dropped against 2 in plane that landed on lake during Ryder Cup

Watch a Super Cub land: http://www.startribune.com/charges-dropped-against-2-on-plane-that-landed-on-lake-during-ryder-cup/403406556/

Cases against two in plane were dismissed. Pair in canoe will go to trial on similar charges.

The two men charged for landing a floatplane on a lake to catch a close-up glimpse of the Ryder Cup in Chaska have had their cases dismissed, and two other fans similarly charged with taking to the lake in a canoe during the international golf tournament are pursuing trials in their petty misdemeanors cases.

The Piper single-engine airplane gently rippled Lake Hazeltine on Oct. 2 near the 10th green during the final round between the U.S. and European squads at Hazeltine National.

Citing in a court filing six weeks later the "unlikelihood of success at trial," the Carver County attorney's office dismissed the petty misdemeanor charge against plane passenger James D. Render, 64, of Wayzata. The case against pilot Dean S. Johnson, 60, of Chanhassen, was also thrown out.

"My understanding is the FAA [Federal Aviation Administration] gave inconsistent information about whether the plane could land on the lake and whether they'd be in FAA violation," Dave Hunt, criminal division manager for the county attorney's office, said Monday. "It was unclear whether the city could prohibit planes from landing on the lake."

A message left for an FAA spokeswoman seeking an update on the agency's inquiry was not returned.

Defense attorney Andrew Birrell, whose firm represented the two men, said the prosecution made "the right decision."

Police Chief Scott Knight said a city ordinance prohibited any activity on the lake during the event. The pilot claimed he didn't know the lake was off limits.

Charges against the canoeists are proceeding, however, with trials scheduled in early February for Ryan J. Hough, 34, of Waconia, and Craig J. Bardal, 31, of Chaska.

Bardal said Monday that he's unwilling to pay the fine. "It's kind of the principle of the matter. I don't feel that Ryan and I did anything wrong." He also wanted to make it clear that even though the lake has no public access, "we had permission from a private landowner" to get on the lake.

Hough and Bardal were arraigned last week and have pleaded not guilty. If convicted, they could each be fined as much as $300.
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Re: Gasp! Pilot lands on lake when other people are around.

Unread postby TriPacer » Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:55 pm

Oh that's awesome! I'm so glad the county attorney saw some reason here. I wonder how the police chief feels now after he called this illegal and idiotic?
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