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Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

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Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby KlausNW » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:07 pm

Jason, I've been trying to write the story that someone would read about "NON-TSA" Aviation. Today's readers are looking for a Meme or catch phrase and the "NON-TSA" phrase ain't ready for prime time yet.

This winter has given me the time away from the shop and more time to research the "NUMBER ONE" problem Aviation faces.... "NO INTEREST". Non-aviation people don't care one way or another about the collapse of our industry. "I just want my box from Amazon TODAY!!!!" "Take me to Micky Mouse land NOW!!!"

"Is it time for the next step?"

Time to eliminate the Private Pilot Certificate. Create two new certificates:
Single Passenger and Multi-Passenger Certificates?

The "Single Passenger License" is basically the Sport Pilot without the gross weight restriction.

The "Multi-Passenger License" is the Private and Instrument combined with required annual recurring training.

People are clicking on news stories about aircraft wrecking, sitting on the ramp, safety reports and everything else showing Aviation down side. We have to bring people into the flying industry around the world not just here. To put Aviation in the good light we must stop having negative events. As we have discussed, the Pilot's and licence ground crew make Aviation safe and secure (the individual that's held responsible). The internet has given us access to the information required to prevent the next mishap. The ever evolving technology is given us the tools to prevent the next scary episode. The skies are getting more congested especially around populated areas. Soon we will have to file an IFR flight plan before takeoff at busy airports to manage the congestion.

It's time to remove the things that are not working from our General Aviation environment. The Airline Aviation industry has made many changes and require a lot of qualifications. The Airline Aviation industry never stops learning from their mistakes and never stop with their ground training. We (the General Aviation group) need to step up the standards. It's a very bitter pill to swallow but it's going to happen one way or the other. Lets set the standards before our bureaucrats start doing it without our input. "Ignorance is NOT Bliss" in Aviation, knowledge is absolutely everything. If we wait for the evolution of Aviation to re-write the rules without the experience available today we will regret it. The General Aviation pilots that are alive now are experienced and knowledgeable enough to write the rules with all inclusive recreational flying. If we wait for the bureaucrats they will go the route of the "Air Traffic Control Privatizing" suggested rules.

Once the re-write of a "Single-Passenger License" is done with all the recreational types of flying considered it will be accepted around the world by many countries even the ones that own many General Aviation Aircraft manufacturers. Recreation Aviation is the backbone of the whole industry, It's the draw that brings potential pilots out. Without Recreational Aviation the potential pilots will look from the outside in and never consider the Aviation career opportunities. Potential Pilots today are looking through the fence at our complicated and egregious rules not understanding why accidents happen. They're not able to compare our everyday community rules with the maze of FAA rules. Recreational Aviation needs to be that opening in the fence that allows you and I to explain the rules and show why we think it's worth the effort.
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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby jjbaker » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:14 am

I just sent you my response to the last active AVweb "Blog" via PM. I see its there now.

Had only 3 hours of sleep due to having a huge showdown with a miserable advertising agency and am due for a telephone conference with a customer, since 9AM. He is late, which is my luck, because now I get the stuff done that needs to happen. Most in the U.S. are sleeping.

I promise that I will take the time to respond. I think the idea is a very logical approach to a very difficult to change status quo.
Considering a former Airline Captain at the helm of FAA now, probably looking to privatize ASAP, and a shrinking and aging populace in our own rows, it may be a concept rejected by most.
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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby RKittine » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:42 am

Interesting concept. With the bureaucracy in this country, I doubt if I would ever see it in what time I have left on this planet. Those of us who are flying what we want, probably could care less and those that are not flying don't know any better.

Even with at least three airports on Long Island having multiple modern Light Sport Tri Gear planes, they are way under utilized and few are signing up for Light Sport. Although I have stayed away from primary students for years, I have three now, only because they are friends. Not sure how close they are to what would be the norm, but only being able to carry one passenger does not excite them (they are all married with kids, some grown) nor do they want to wait until they have both a Private and Instrument Rating to enjoy what they think they might enjoy.

On top of that , cost is still an issue. A C-172 out here is $150.00 per hour wet, plus $50.00 for the instructor etc. Regardless of the licenses offered, the students are not lined up like they were in the late 60s and early 70s when I did most of my primary instruction.

Twice a year we run the EAA Flight A Kid program. A bunch of us come out to the airport for the full day after a pretty substantial advertising program. Armed with Log Books and Certificates, each of us take up a kid for about 30 minutes, a little longer than the old Cessna Intro flight, and let them handle the controls and see flying from a real plane. Last one I was at, I flew 12 kids over about 12 hours, which included a little ground before and after. Others in our group did about the same. There was no charge to anyone and lunch was available free. The last one we had probably 60 kids from 13 thru 18 take the flights. Not one of them call any of us back afterward to find out more.

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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby KeithSmith » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:11 pm

The reason general aviation and many other things do not flourish as they could in this country is because of greed. That greed comes in two major flavors. The first is the greed of the bureaucrats who are greedy for money and power. The second is the greed of those in the so called "justice" system who intentionally make suing and collecting excessive amounts of money the order of the day. Unless and until human nature no longer includes greed, the regulations and costs will stifle general aviation and many other businesses.
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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby KlausNW » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:22 pm

KeithSmith wrote:The reason general aviation and many other things do not flourish as they could in this country is because of greed. That greed comes in two major flavors. The first is the greed of the bureaucrats who are greedy for money and power. The second is the greed of those in the so called "justice" system who intentionally make suing and collecting excessive amounts of money the order of the day. Unless and until human nature no longer includes greed, the regulations and costs will stifle general aviation and many other businesses.


Greed can go both ways. I believe that desire to be ahead of the pack is a positive trait. The easy route would be to say 'the man is holding me down', move into grandma's basement, play video games and smoke pot. Very few are taking on the world and becoming someone of character. Greedy people are very important for a capitalist system to work. My definition of utopia is "Everyone" be greedy and ambitious. I love the challenges. I have always made way more money when there was more then 5 Air-taxis on the airfield.
:Mr.Money:

A wise judge once told me to quit using that "justice" word. He told me that it's a "legal industry". Judges, lawyers and politicians are competing for a step up and willing to do whatever it takes to get ahead of each other. Like any challenge, how do we use their arrogance for our benefit?

I know i'm sounding like a silly optimist but, I'm surrounded by pessimist and it's getting old. At my age I've decided to sprint these next ten years. By the time I reach my mid 60's I'll feel that I tried. I know quite a few senior folks that have told me "they regret that they didn't do more'.
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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby KlausNW » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:25 pm

Bob, a little history on this "Multi-Passenger License":

Back during the development of the "Sport Pilot License" (about 15 years ago or more), the FAA brought this up for discussion at a meeting and the person presenting it was spooked. The audience was a bunch of grey hairs that would bad mouthed their own mother. The poor FAA guy never brought it up again.

We talked about it quite a bit at the Air-Taxi I worked for at the time. The more the pilots and mechanics talked about it over a beer or two the more it made sense. The reason a young person gets into Aviation more often then not is to fly. Most people know they have no money so they have to get someone else to pay for their flying. A pilot needs a commercial certificate to except money for flying.... So, the less steps to a commercial certificate the better and the pilots that never get a commercial rating will still have to get ongoing instrument and airspace training to fly more than one passenger.

I believe that once this idea is put back out in the internet opinion world someone from the FAA will hear us. Maybe even one of those alphabet groups?

There's quite a few down sides to a multi-passenger license, that's why the feds may like it. 'Cost' is the biggest downside. 'Time' is the other. The number of student starts and completions will obviously be worse. On-the-other-hand, Pilots will be more qualified and educated. They will only have one more hoop to jump through before acquiring a pay check. If a potential pilot really wants a career as a pilot the extra training will be welcome and they have to do it anyway.

If a potential pilot is not sure how bad they want a career flying... just do the 20 hour minimal training coarse and take your cute girl/boyfriend of the week for a ride.
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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby cubdriver2 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:17 pm

Your over thinking this. Just a simple sigh will keep aviation alive. Put this in every FBO

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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby RKittine » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:08 pm

After having flown for the last 58 years I am one of those old grey hairs. I will leave the future of general aviation to you young whipper snappers. Many of us got into the 1 passenger route because that was the way we felt at the time we could keep flying. I think the lack of sign ups for Sport License training is that those new to aviation, but wanting to enter, MAY be turned off by the one passenger route and only excited by more of an option, even if later they come to love it.

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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby KeithSmith » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:34 am

KlausNW wrote:A wise judge once told me to quit using that "justice" word. He told me that it's a "legal industry".


A wise and honest judge indeed.

I'll certainly agree that greed and ambition can seem to travel a parallel path, but they are two separate courses. It's a bit like the difference between a soldier and a mercenary. To the person downrange who feels the impact of the round, the distinction may be mute, but it's two different classes of people nonetheless.
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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby RKittine » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:34 am

Yep, Ambition can be very positive.
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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby RKittine » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:20 am

One of the other issues that I am seeing is the lack of a decent rental fleet, at least in this neck of the woods. You can find an SLSA or a C-172 to rent pretty easily, but if you want to take it for the day, there is usually at least a 4 hour minimum per day. Haven't found any rentable high performance aircraft for rent with the exception of a few twins, which of course have high fuel costs.

Back in the 70s and 80s I worked part time for Tom O'Looney at TAG Aviation. The Ramapo Valley Airport location had on the field a Beech Aero Club with:
1 - Duchess
1- Sierra
2 - Sundowners
1 - Musketeer
1 - Cadet
2 more - The Fixed Gear 285 HP one like a downgraded Bonanza, but I can not remember the model name.

TAG Aviation had 6 C-172s (including one I bought new in 1985 - N98772 - Last I knew located at Solsberg) -They were the only planes with daily minimum. In addition to that the line included:
1 - Cessna 310
1 - Cessna 303
2 - Cessna 172RGs
1 - Cessna 182 Turbo RG
1 - Cessna 210
2 - Cessna 210 Turbos
1 - Cessna Presurized 210

Glenn might remember that airport. It was there in 1962 when I moved to the area and my 172 was the last plane out at the end of 1986 when they closed the airport. All of that fleet was moved to TAGs operations at Princeton, Lincoln Part and Morristown, all three FBOs having been closed. All the Beech Aero Clubs that I knew of are gone.

The ones that replaced them are renting newer and MUCH more expensive aircraft, with the exception of a few C-172. In talking to them, their 172s are getting 20-30 hours each per month.

From the day I bought my new 172 in 1985 until I sold it in 1988 I was averaging 105 hours per month. It had been worth buying a new airplane.

Now look at the price of a new 172 or Cirrus etc. and it is hard to either rent them at a rate that will attract renters or make them pay for lease backers. Would love to see that change.

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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby cubdriver2 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:56 pm

Reality is it's dying a slow death. And if you own a plane or two like me soon there will be nobody left to buy it. I enjoy it, I avoid all the hoopla and just keep doing my own thing

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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby RKittine » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:55 pm

Totally agree Glenn, unless it is something that can be used for income generation like Part 135 Charter etc.

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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby RKittine » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:04 pm

Just got another memo from the East Hampton Pilots Association that I am a member of.

So though the pilots association did win a victory over part of the curfew, the town, legally put in a $20.00 per landing fee for singles and a $1.00 per gallon fuel surcharge. $20.00 to park over night.

The two Free Airports just West of Westhampton Beach Airport just closed, so unless you are based locally, it is expensive to go in and out. General Aviation is taking it up the you know where.

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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby KlausNW » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:44 pm

Bob, thanks for the update.
The same silly fees and charges on going on everywhere out here in the west also. I question myself about trying to change things (like this thread states) and wonder if I'm doing the right thing. Well, these fees are evidence that we either 'change' things and be on the offence or continue defense and loose. I was told by a couple very successful entrepreneurs "to do something even if it's wrong and see it through, that's how you learn to get ahead".

It's sad because, I feel the best way to continue flying is to get a folding wing amphib and enclosed trailer. Then sneak around and fly it in remote places. There's not many places anymore that welcome environmentally friendly snow machines or watercraft. I even know folks that use extra mufflers and the politically backed NIMBY's still show up out of nowhere to "fee 'em & shut 'em down".
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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby RKittine » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:58 pm

I understand why Glenn can have some much fun upstate away from all of this. When I was MUCH younger, I could take off, fly until I saw an open farm field and land and the farmers wife was likely to come out to meet me with a pitcher of ice tea or lemonade. In the 60s I was able to get 300 hours of free Beech 18 time flying (and loading and unloading) mail around Florida and would chat for hours every night with the controllers, who were usually bored stiff. Then there was the things we were able to get away with in the cockpits of 27s and DC-9s. Oh how things have changed.

I watched American Made last night and remember on a 30 hour turn out drinking at night in uniform.

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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby jjbaker » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:50 pm

Those who got my last batch of emails know that I have been some "busy" for the last few days. Its been a ride. There are just so many things that would need to be fizzled apart and talked about....

Let me assure you, the attitude that everything is going to shit is the completely wrong way to look at things.

There is three kinds of people, everywhere... even in aviation.

1. Those who make stuff happen
2. Those who watch what happens
3. Those who wonder what the heck happened.

We can spend time whining and crying about a past and just how cool things used to be. Or we can object to everything new and wish things always stayed the same. Finally we can start putting our heads and combined millions of years of experience and knowledge together, bundle and funnel our power and start doing what none of the association clowns can ever do. Unite us! Speak for us. Solve problems for us.

To me it doesn't matter if the guy thinking forward is 85 or 25. We succeed by listening, speaking the truth and staying true to everything we touch. Trump or Obama, Clinton or Schuster, matters not one bit.

All the motivation we can ever have is that which is in us. Nobody can transfer their surplus of motivation off to someone else and nobody can take a true motivation away from someone who has it.

Focus on meeting the naysayer in the middle.
Focus on meeting the dreamer in the middle.
Focus on thinking of things that work, today!
Focus on avoiding to spend your time with "No!"
Focus on being inconveniently honest and direct.

Once we go back to treating each other like family and friends and allies, things will change.

More in the remote case that I wake up again, tomorrow.
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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby RKittine » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:12 pm

What did you have to drink tonight Jason?

Enjoy
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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby cubdriver2 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:46 pm

I had forget about the Twilight Zone reruns.

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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby KlausNW » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:58 pm

OK Jason, with that said.

Back to streamlining the pilot licensing process. I've put the "Multi-Passenger" concept out there. Does anyone have a different idea?

I'm thinking that we keep running with the combining of the Private and Instrument. The BasicMed option would still be available. The Commercial rating requirements wouldn't change and you still need a second class medical to receive payment. Another change, the very initial training would be the "Single-Passenger" (Sport Pilot) training. Have the initial syllabus be the "Single-Passenger" training so at anytime after the student meets the requirements they can take the single-passenger check ride. The FAA will most likely eliminate the drivers license as a medical before long anyway.

The rules on instrument piloting currency would also be required for 'all' multi-passenger operations. The aircraft would need it's two year static system and altimeter checks. VOR, transponder checks and avionics backup battery replacements. Then add 8 hours of FAA approved recurrence classes each year or three instrument flights each quarter. To maintain an Inspection Authorization (IA) an A&P mechanic must do 8 hours of training, 4 annuals or 8 form 337's. I believe that these requirements have been a very important and successful accident prevention requirement. Just too many things change each year and the pilots need to stay on top of these changes. Every time a pilot kills a plane load of people the Monday morning quarterbacks remind the media that there was a technology or practice that would have prevented the accident.
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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby jjbaker » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:57 am

The National Clowning Association announced last night that they would like to hire me as their new Chief Executive Clown. I had applied 5 years ago and after they figured out I was the only applicant, I was like their natural best choice and most qualified candidate!

They are very impressed with my leadership in aviation and particularly seaplane aviation...

The job will bring a much needed shift in focus. Chris Buckner and Klaus Marx will continue Seaplaneforum.com and Seaplanemagazine.com

I can from now on only deal with funny clowns who comply with the values and strategic vision of the board. Sorry, if you're not a member, I can't talk to you. I will have to focus on wars I can win.

First thing I will do is raise membership fees and come out with a 32 page recycled paper magazine that is full of ads for circus operators. Most of the time there may be technical difficulties and other issues that prevent the timely distribution of our magazine or to do anything of essence for yet another clown to drop dead and go out of business, but there will be a funny looking decal for every members clown tool box.

Then, after I get into the exclusive levels of luxury clowns, I will communicate my associations values and strategic vision among all these clowns and be a real sounding board for all those who make tons of money with clowning. There are few, and Chinese clowns are knocking, but I won't worry about that.

It will all be very exclusive and fun. I will single handedly put adventure back into clowning! We will have 600 members but 6.000.000 bought Facebook Likes! Popularity matters!

Membership will be $2000/ year for normal members, but there will be plenty of fundraiser events to build our new headquarters, right where the most clown are, Washington D.C. After a few years we will launch the supereliteclownlegendsalive.org - My salary will be good enough not to worry. It will be excellent! I will make Clowning Great Again!

In a few years I will write opinion editorials on clowning blogs and things will be just fine.

I wish you guys good luck with your future endeavors! It was a pleasure dealing with all of you for the last 8 years!

KBye!
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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby KlausNW » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:04 am

Jason is this your new company jacket?

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This may not be a clown costume....
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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby jjbaker » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:13 am

Actually similar. Mine has the zipper sideways and the arms crossed on the back.
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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby RKittine » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:52 am

Now how can you respond to that?

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Re: Is It Time Aviation Goes The Next Step?

Unread postby RKittine » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:05 am

Klaus, I can be a little dense at times, so please explain how the single passenger license would be different then a Sport Pilot License. What many do not seem to remember is as a Sport Pilot, you are not limited to LSA qualifying aircraft UNLESS you intend to fly based on a valid drivers license only and not get an FAA Medical, at least once, and yet, at least in my experience, the reduced training requirements (as well as added limitations) never resulted in a massive increase in the ranks of new pilot training starts. For LSA or otherwise. The majority of LSA Pilots I know, at least have a Private and are flying LSA to eliminate the need for an FAA 3rd Class or better medical. Now at least many of us are flying under BasicMed and for the insurance companies, your BasicMed dates are listed on your FAA data file. Though I can't get paid to fly at this point, I can get paid to teach, so I am still instructing.

Although I had a few start as Sport Pilot students, as soon as they found out that, first they might not get through in the minimum time (typical for once a week students, second that there was not that much more to do to get the private, especially since they needed more time than the minimum and lastly, why have to pay for a SP Check Ride and then a PP check ride. For a combination Private / Instrument, I would also think that you would then be forced to either take two check rides as there are things done VFR on the Private ride than would be done on the instrument, or a more extensive double check ride, which I bet would be more expensive. Then you also have to use an IFR certified and current aircraft, which in many cases is more costly then say if you took your private in a C-150.

I have a friend who is a new student. I got him signed up for his Student License through the FAA / TSA process and he is now going to a Faux Medical Examiner, where he will filled out an example medical form and take the make believe medical. If this doctor says he will pass the 3rd class, he will take it, hopefully get it and the next time around go Basic Med. He is training in a C-150. If for some reason the doctor says don't chance it, he will switch to LSA, but he really wants a PPL.

In many ways we have moved forward. When I got my license you needed 160 hours to go for your commercial, after which you could fly for hire during day time VFR. To get your Instrument, you had to have 250 hours first. That got dropped to 125 and then just back to the current level of time and training required. Do you support a Private / Instrument where the whole multi-passenger allowance would be on hold if you not only had your 90 day take offs and landings, but also if you did not have your IFR currency? I know a lot of instrument pilots that fly for fun and do not keep up their required instrument currency no less proficiency a very big difference in my opinion.

Some day we will have to chat about my negotiations with the FAA over the years. They can be flexible at times.

Bob
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Bob
West Nyack Aviation, L.L.C. New York, New York - East Hampton, New York & Warwick, New York 631.374.9652
rkittine@aol.com WA2YDV
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